TigerTedd Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 My view is that he, and anyone who can afford it, are doing the rest of us a favour by using private health care. If you can afford it, you should almost be obliged to use it. Don’t waste NHS resources that can be used on those that really need it, when you can afford to pay for health care. Everyone’s a winner. You get faster healthcare, and the NHS has one less person to look after, so one person gets slightly higher up the waiting list. GB SPORTS, bcnram, Anag Ram and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealhantsram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 7 minutes ago, TigerTedd said: My view is that he, and anyone who can afford it, are doing the rest of us a favour by using private health care. If you can afford it, you should almost be obliged to use it. Don’t waste NHS resources that can be used on those that really need it, when you can afford to pay for health care. Everyone’s a winner. You get faster healthcare, and the NHS has one less person to look after, so one person gets slightly higher up the waiting list. Sorry bud, you got that all wrong. What you forget is that there is only a limited supply of doctors. The more demand there is from paying clients in the private sector, the less work they are able to do in the NHS. Private healthcare does not mean shorter waiting lists for the rest of us, it means longer ones. Edited February 6 by therealhantsram Rev, Eddie, Comrade 86 and 5 others 3 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ewetube Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I pity anyone, no matter how high or how humble that has to contend with cancer. It is a life altering condition that not only profoundly affects the sufferer but also their family. Any condition whose treatment requires those administering it to wear heavy duty PPE is not to be taken lightly. I wish him and anyone else suffering from or caring for someone with this terrible disease the best possible outcome. Anag Ram, GB SPORTS and Day 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 20 minutes ago, therealhantsram said: Sorry bud, you got that all wrong. What you forget is that there is only a limited supply of doctors. The more demand there is from paying clients in the private sector, the less work they are able to do in the NHS. Private healthcare does not mean shorter waiting lists for the rest of us, it means longer ones. I disagree. If government encouraged more people to take private healthcare by abolishing the ridiculous 12% Insurance Premium Tax we would be building more hospitals and employing more staff in the private sector. The NHS simply has too many patients and it has become too expensive to operate, meaning brilliant staff don’t get the pay they deserve. CBX1985 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob The Badger Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 28 minutes ago, therealhantsram said: Sorry bud, you got that all wrong. What you forget is that there is only a limited supply of doctors. The more demand there is from paying clients in the private sector, the less work they are able to do in the NHS. Private healthcare does not mean shorter waiting lists for the rest of us, it means longer ones. Yep. Lots of doctors work short weeks for the NHS now so they can do private work. That is accentuated with specialists, of which, in most areas, there is a desperate shortage. therealhantsram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therealhantsram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 23 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: I disagree. If government encouraged more people to take private healthcare by abolishing the ridiculous 12% Insurance Premium Tax we would be building more hospitals and employing more staff in the private sector. The NHS simply has too many patients and it has become too expensive to operate, meaning brilliant staff don’t get the pay they deserve. ??? Not sure what exactly you're disagreeing with. Seems like you are totally backing may point. As you say, the result would be even more doctors leaving the NHS for higher pay and yet worse care for the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob The Badger Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 36 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: I disagree. If government encouraged more people to take private healthcare by abolishing the ridiculous 12% Insurance Premium Tax we would be building more hospitals and employing more staff in the private sector. The NHS simply has too many patients and it has become too expensive to operate, meaning brilliant staff don’t get the pay they deserve. We're no different to any other country with an ageing population, but we're struggling worse than most wealthy countries. The US operate what you want to see, and all it creates is a brilliant system for the wealthy and a terrible one for the poorer sector. If the Government did encourage people, as you're suggesting, the NHS would go the same way as the dental service, with doctors bailing out to do the more highly paid, less stressful work. We're not a few quid or even a few hundred million away from building new hospitals; we're billions, and more importantly, the will isn't there. Because the reality is that tax cuts and money in the pocket win more votes no matter what people like to think. Crewton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 3 minutes ago, therealhantsram said: ??? Not sure what exactly you're disagreeing with. Seems like you are totally backing may point. As you say, the result would be even more doctors leaving the NHS for higher pay and yet worse care for the majority. I think the theory is that the money saved by no longer paying the staff that have moved over to the private sector could be used to fund replacements (after all, the NHS funding shouldn’t change). The end game would mean we’d have fewer patients (as some go private) but the same number of doctors (as those leaving are replaced). However, I see two major problems with this theory: 1) the time it would take to recruit and train the replacements and/or 2) the downstream impact on other countries if more medical professionals move to the UK because we could pay more (that’s not an anti immigration statement but rather a genuine concern for medical services abroad). Maybe the only answer would be to pump even more money into the NHS (whilst at the same time tackling it’s inefficiencies) so that NHS pay could match that offered in the private sector (and therefore staff are retained and even more attracted), and more hospitals are built, but that would mean an increase in tax or NI that wouldn’t be popular and we might still have the potential problem with medical services abroad.🤷🏻 ariotofmyown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerTedd Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 34 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: I think the theory is that the money saved by no longer paying the staff that have moved over to the private sector could be used to fund replacements (after all, the NHS funding shouldn’t change). The end game would mean we’d have fewer patients (as some go private) but the same number of doctors (as those leaving are replaced). However, I see two major problems with this theory: 1) the time it would take to recruit and train the replacements and/or 2) the downstream impact on other countries if more medical professionals move to the UK because we could pay more (that’s not an anti immigration statement but rather a genuine concern for medical services abroad). Maybe the only answer would be to pump even more money into the NHS (whilst at the same time tackling it’s inefficiencies) so that NHS pay could match that offered in the private sector (and therefore staff are retained and even more attracted), and more hospitals are built, but that would mean an increase in tax or NI that wouldn’t be popular and we might still have the potential problem with medical services abroad.🤷🏻 That’s the thing. I essentially offer a private healthcare service. I take people’s blood. Why wait 2 weeks for an appointment at the gp surgery when you can come to me and get it done same day. i can get paid £20-£30 for an appointment. Or I can work on the bank at the hospital, which I have done, for 5 hours, taking 12 bloods an hour, for just over minimum wage. By the time I’ve bought a coffee at the Costa, and paid for my parking I’m barely making £50 for the whole stressful shift. I love the idea of the NHS, but i honestly don’t know why anyone works for them NHS. Most of the phlebs that work for me also work in the NHS, because we can’t offer them enough work to be anything more than pocket money. But until we offered them this role, they were supplementing their wage being Uber drivers or deliverers. At least this way it’s basically Uber, but they get to use their medical skills. I employ doctors, nurses, they all earn so little that they need to supplement their wage with private gig work, one way or another. ariotofmyown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, therealhantsram said: ??? Not sure what exactly you're disagreeing with. Seems like you are totally backing may point. As you say, the result would be even more doctors leaving the NHS for higher pay and yet worse care for the majority. Sorry, my point was that more demand for private healthcare would increase the number of facilities for treatment, reducing the burden on the NHS. A smaller number of doctors and nurses would be required for the NHS which should (and this is hypothetical) mean the government could afford to pay them more. GB SPORTS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: Sorry, my point was that more demand for private healthcare would increase the number of facilities for treatment, reducing the burden on the NHS. A smaller number of doctors and nurses would be required for the NHS which should (and this is hypothetical) mean the government could afford to pay them more. But how would it help waiting lists for the majority if the number of doctors in the NHS was reduced as a result of fewer patients? Surely you need either more doctors to cope with the existing number of patients or the same number of doctors as now if the number of NHS patients declined. If you reduce both sides of the equation then the situation doesn’t change. Edited February 6 by Tamworthram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 9 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: But how would it help waiting lists for the majority if the number of doctors in the NHS was reduced as a result of fewer patients? Surely you need either more doctors to cope with the existing number of patients or the same number of doctors as now if the number of NHS patients declined. If you reduce both sides of the equation then the situation doesn’t change. The State would be paying fewer staff as the private healthcare sector would be paying more. If both private and public were paid more, we would attract more to the roles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I was at a Funeral yesterday...the wake was at Pride Park, I saw some old friends I'd not seen for 35+ years, Some I didn't recognise as age has caught up with all of us...now here's my take on the NHS One had a peptic ulcer went into the General in Derby and on the operating table by 10pm, One was out walking and had a seizure and collapsed, Now diagnosed with Epilepsy and had his driving licence taken away, One has had a knee replacement and waiting for the other knee to be replaced, One has Parkinson's and can't stop pissing and has to take 3/4 tablets a day...and last but not least yet another funeral in a couple of weeks as an old friend died from Dementia at 66 years old 2 weeks ago 😔 The NHS was there for all of them and did a great job in trying times ☺️👍 Tamworthram, EtoileSportiveDeDerby, Crewton and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 26 minutes ago, Anag Ram said: The State would be paying fewer staff as the private healthcare sector would be paying more. If both private and public were paid more, we would attract more to the roles. If the state was paying for fewer staff wouldn’t that just offset the reduced number of patients and therefore waiting lists wouldn’t improve? As I said, if you reduce both sides of the equation, nothing changes. I agree more people might use private health if they got rid of the insurance tax but I think the vast majority of the population would still choose, or have to, use the NHS. Regarding attracting more to the roles, where are they going to come from? Either they are people not currently working in this sector, in which case we’d have to accept the waiting lists aren’t going to improve for several years until such time as these people have been through the appropriate level of education and trained (I accept that increased pay might reduce the number moving overseas for better pay but I’m not sure how significant a number that is) or, we recruit more qualified people from abroad with the knock on effects this might have in their home country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True Ram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I think the trouble with the NHS is people are in the AE when they don't need to be there I was at the AE at Derby about 5 months ago for 22 hours with the wife Kidney stone I saw the same old faces from about 3 years ago still ordering kebabs to be delivered to AE that is the trouble and as far cancer it's a Basxxrd I've had it and got very good treatment from the NHS Ewe Ram and Crewton 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 22 minutes ago, True Ram said: I think the trouble with the NHS is people are in the AE when they don't need to be there I was at the AE at Derby about 5 months ago for 22 hours with the wife Kidney stone I saw the same old faces from about 3 years ago still ordering kebabs to be delivered to AE that is the trouble and as far cancer it's a Basxxrd I've had it and got very good treatment from the NHS I think that is ONE of the problems with being seen swiftly in A&E but it doesn’t really cause waiting lists which, for many is a much bigger issue. I think the NHS is a wonderful institution of which I’m proud. Of the staff I have encountered (for me, my daughter, my elderly parents and when my wife had cancer) probably 99.99% of them are fantastic individuals. I’d say the biggest problem is it’s such a massive institution that a lot of money is probably wasted on management, bureaucracy and inefficient procurement. It’s almost become too big a beast to fix. Kinder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob The Badger Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 2 hours ago, Anag Ram said: Sorry, my point was that more demand for private healthcare would increase the number of facilities for treatment, reducing the burden on the NHS. A smaller number of doctors and nurses would be required for the NHS which should (and this is hypothetical) mean the government could afford to pay them more. You're describing the US model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob The Badger Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 41 minutes ago, True Ram said: I think the trouble with the NHS is people are in the AE when they don't need to be there I was at the AE at Derby about 5 months ago for 22 hours with the wife Kidney stone I saw the same old faces from about 3 years ago still ordering kebabs to be delivered to AE that is the trouble and as far cancer it's a Basxxrd I've had it and got very good treatment from the NHS So you were in the A & E 5 months ago, and you can recall seeing people from 3 years earlier and also remembering what they ordered for dinner? Feck me, I can barely remember what I had for dinner last night. Stive Pesley and ariotofmyown 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
True Ram Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 17 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said: So you were in the A & E 5 months ago, and you can recall seeing people from 3 years earlier and also remembering what they ordered for dinner? Feck me, I can barely remember what I had for dinner last night. Yes I can't that sort of thing sticks in your mind when you have seen them before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 5 hours ago, therealhantsram said: What you forget is that there is only a limited supply of doctors. The more demand there is from paying clients in the private sector, the less work they are able to do in the NHS. This was blatantly obvious to me when I was having my gastro issues 2 years ago. I was on a waiting list and couldn't even get to speak to the consultant. When I investigated going private, lo and behold all the same NHS consultants were the ones you could immediately book for a private consultation But anyway we digress. Anyone else think it odd that the Royals have been so transparent here? Normally there is a cloak of secrecy over this type of thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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