Finance

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

I haven’t looked for that. I’m sure throughout the Morris era when spoke about putting money in it was in this form. From what I have read though there are just the amounts that we were in debt. As I mentioned the amounts in the directors statement of affairs were on page 15 of the october progress report. Without saying that these were definitely the loans what else could they be? I genuinely want to know what else you think they could be @G STAR RAM?

They were loans made by MM or his other companies to Gellaw or Sevco, NOT to the football club.

These companies were used to buy shares in the football club and the ground.

Not sure what you are finding hard to understand about this? The Directors Statement of Affairs clearly states the creditors of the club at £36m of which claims of £2m were made. I'm assuming there was no need for the football creditors or HMRC to make claims given that these had to paid to avoid us losing our EFL membership. 

[Chesterfield_Ram]

32 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

They were loans made by MM or his other companies to Gellaw or Sevco, NOT to the football club.

These companies were used to buy shares in the football club and the ground.

Not sure what you are finding hard to understand about this? The Directors Statement of Affairs clearly states the creditors of the club at £36m of which claims of £2m were made. I'm assuming there was no need for the football creditors or HMRC to make claims given that these had to paid to avoid us losing our EFL membership. 

I’m not finding it hard to understand the creditors of £36 million at all. 
 

Mt point the whole time was that the 5 companies mentioned in the directors statement of affairs made up the club. The football club which had £36 million in creditors was solely the first team. The other 4 companies mentioned made up the rest of the club until DC bought it and brought it all together again.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

All I’ve been trying to say is that if the comment you’re talking about is the £200 million being owed to Morris, then his comment is neither 100% correct or 100% incorrect. All I’ve been trying to say is that the way the accounts and companies were dealt with has left a lot of grey areas.

As someone with Maguire’s credentials and his track record across the sport, I’m inclined to believe what he has to say over an anonymous member on a forum.

His comment didnt say Mel Morris was owed £200m, it said something along the lines of fair play to The Melephant for writing off £200m owed to him by the club.

Perhaps you could show me where these loans that you are talking about appear in the document below please?

[jono]

Isn’t the truth of the matter about the loans more along the lines of ….Mel bought the club for a certain sum. Convinced others it was “worth” a lot more and borrowed money on that basis. Using the clubs incorrectly enhanced value, as security.
He then spent that money (now secured on the club) so he could play mr big man gambler. He lent money but it was other peoples money, that by attaching it to the club meant for him, if the club went he was in the clear  ? 
 

It was my car, bought on finance, didn’t insure it, I drove it, played flash Harry, crashed it and left everyone else to pick up the pieces

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Isn’t the truth of the matter about the loans more along the lines of ….Mel bought the club for a certain sum. Convinced others it was “worth” a lot more and borrowed money on that basis. Using the clubs incorrectly enhanced value, as security.
He then spent that money (now secured on the club) so he could play mr big man gambler. He lent money but it was other peoples money, that by attaching it to the club meant for him, if the club went he was in the clear  ? 
 

It was my car, bought on finance, didn’t insure it, I drove it, played flash Harry, crashed it and left everyone else to pick up the pieces

Surely you’d still be liable for the outstanding finance on the car in your example? You can’t just walk away from such a debt simply because you don’t have the car any more.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, jono said:

Isn’t the truth of the matter about the loans more along the lines of ….Mel bought the club for a certain sum. Convinced others it was “worth” a lot more and borrowed money on that basis. Using the clubs incorrectly enhanced value, as security.
He then spent that money (now secured on the club) so he could play mr big man gambler. He lent money but it was other peoples money, that by attaching it to the club meant for him, if the club went he was in the clear  ? 
 

It was my car, bought on finance, didn’t insure it, I drove it, played flash Harry, crashed it and left everyone else to pick up the pieces

Not really the club didnt actually borrow any money, just didnt pay its debts. 

The only real external cash debt appears to have been the £23m MSD loan secured against a stadium valued at £81m.

[Elwood P Dowd]

53 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Not really the club didnt actually borrow any money, just didnt pay its debts. 

The only real external cash debt appears to have been the £23m MSD loan secured against a stadium valued at £81m.

Succinctly put.👍

Edited January 23 by Elwood P Dowd

[jono]

1 hour ago, Tamworthram said:

Surely you’d still be liable for the outstanding finance on the car in your example? You can’t just walk away from such a debt simply because you don’t have the car any more.

True but if when buying it you bought it using a company you owned and that company had limited liability. 

[Mihangel]

16 hours ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

Stephen Pearce? He never said Morris was running the club, just that there was someone who is still there from the Morris era.

In challenging your assertion that "He's someone who is well respected in his area of work and works with facts" I was referring to his alleged phone conversation with an employee of the club where he learned that Morris "still has boots on the ground". He is implying that it's someone we don't know about - It would hardly take a secret phone call to learn that Pearce was still there.

I certainly don't think he has any particular axe to grind with Derby (and who would care, he has no influence) but to claim he works only with facts is not how I see it.

Edited January 23 by Mihangel

[Crewton]

3 hours ago, jono said:

Isn’t the truth of the matter about the loans more along the lines of ….Mel bought the club for a certain sum. Convinced others it was “worth” a lot more and borrowed money on that basis. Using the clubs incorrectly enhanced value, as security.
He then spent that money (now secured on the club) so he could play mr big man gambler. He lent money but it was other peoples money, that by attaching it to the club meant for him, if the club went he was in the clear  ? 
 

It was my car, bought on finance, didn’t insure it, I drove it, played flash Harry, crashed it and left everyone else to pick up the pieces

In a word - no. The accounts for the first couple of years of Mel's ownership I'm pretty sure showed no debt other than the mortgage on the stadium which existed when Mel bought the club. He subsequently loaned the club funds as required on a "repayment whenever" basis but never converted them into equity. He only started seeking external finance once he'd started looking for buyers, obviously deciding to preserve what he had left.

[tinman]

[Spanish]

50 minutes ago, Crewton said:

In a word - no. The accounts for the first couple of years of Mel's ownership I'm pretty sure showed no debt other than the mortgage on the stadium which existed when Mel bought the club. He subsequently loaned the club funds as required on a "repayment whenever" basis but never converted them into equity. He only started seeking external finance once he'd started looking for buyers, obviously deciding to preserve what he had left.

After reval didn’t he sell the ownership of the ground to another entity but no funds were actually exchanged? 

[Crewton]

Just now, Spanish said:

After reval didn’t he sell the ownership of the ground to another entity but no funds were actually exchanged? 

Yes, as far as I can tell, it was a transfer of ownership which created intra-Group debt with no cash movement.

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, tinman said:

Stay off the thread then. 😀

[hintonsboots]

2 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Stay off the thread then. 😀

That’s E BIT DAring of a comment.

[Chesterfield_Ram]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

In a word - no. The accounts for the first couple of years of Mel's ownership I'm pretty sure showed no debt other than the mortgage on the stadium which existed when Mel bought the club. He subsequently loaned the club funds as required on a "repayment whenever" basis but never converted them into equity. He only started seeking external finance once he'd started looking for buyers, obviously deciding to preserve what he had left.

This is what I have been trying to say, but worded much better than me.

[Chesterfield_Ram]

14 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

His comment didnt say Mel Morris was owed £200m, it said something along the lines of fair play to The Melephant for writing off £200m owed to him by the club.

Perhaps you could show me where these loans that you are talking about appear in the document below please?

 

This is the table I was looking at. As it shows in the Clowes Developments accounts that were published over the weekend, CD bought Gellaw Newco 202 Limited which housed the companies named in the table. 

By following the numbers you can see that a substantial amount (shown in the bottom 2 rows) that unsecured non-football creditors (not HMRC as they are secured under the rules) could have claimed. It doesn't go into the specifics of whose owed what, but I presume this is where the sum mentioned by journalists and Maguire came from. Also, in further defence of Maguire he is not alone in what he has said about Morris writing off some of the debt.

As for the table you produced. It is labelled as the statement of affairs in administration, which explains why these large sums are not present. This is due to them not being claimed during the administration, potentially due to whoever they are writing them off.

[G STAR RAM]

39 minutes ago, Chesterfield_Ram said:

This is the table I was looking at. As it shows in the Clowes Developments accounts that were published over the weekend, CD bought Gellaw Newco 202 Limited which housed the companies named in the table. 

By following the numbers you can see that a substantial amount (shown in the bottom 2 rows) that unsecured non-football creditors (not HMRC as they are secured under the rules) could have claimed. It doesn't go into the specifics of whose owed what, but I presume this is where the sum mentioned by journalists and Maguire came from. Also, in further defence of Maguire he is not alone in what he has said about Morris writing off some of the debt.

As for the table you produced. It is labelled as the statement of affairs in administration, which explains why these large sums are not present. This is due to them not being claimed during the administration, potentially due to whoever they are writing them off.

Yes and as Ive said before Sevco and Gellaw were the vehicles used by MM to purchase shares in DCFC and the ground.

So MM may have put money into Sevco and Gellaw as a directors/shareholders loan, to provide the funds to purchase share capital, however, these amounts are not then owed by the company who's share capital has been purchased.

From memory MM originally paid £50m for the shares, he then introduced another £100m in equity (displayed in the movement between 2015 and 2018 share capital per the accounts filed). He has then had to pay £80m for the ground (although I doubt the club will have ever received this).

Total expenditure circa £230m which is coincidentally close to the amounts shown as creditors in Gellaw/Sevco. 

So in summary, KM was talking bollox when he said he wrote off £200m owed from the club, unless of course he loaned £200m to the club between 30/06/2018 and the date we went into administration, this on top of the other circa £50m of debt that he left is in at time of departure.

[G STAR RAM]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

In a word - no. The accounts for the first couple of years of Mel's ownership I'm pretty sure showed no debt other than the mortgage on the stadium which existed when Mel bought the club. He subsequently loaned the club funds as required on a "repayment whenever" basis but never converted them into equity. He only started seeking external finance once he'd started looking for buyers, obviously deciding to preserve what he had left.

I'm sorry but I believe that this is factually incorrect, unless you have some evidence of what happened after 30 June 2018?

[Chesterfield_Ram]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Yes and as Ive said before Sevco and Gellaw were the vehicles used by MM to purchase shares in DCFC and the ground.

So MM may have put money into Sevco and Gellaw as a directors/shareholders loan, to provide the funds to purchase share capital, however, these amounts are not then owed by the company who's share capital has been purchased.

From memory MM originally paid £50m for the shares, he then introduced another £100m in equity (displayed in the movement between 2015 and 2018 share capital per the accounts filed). He has then had to pay £80m for the ground (although I doubt the club will have ever received this).

Total expenditure circa £230m which is coincidentally close to the amounts shown as creditors in Gellaw/Sevco. 

So in summary, KM was talking bollox when he said he wrote off £200m owed from the club, unless of course he loaned £200m to the club between 30/06/2018 and the date we went into administration, this on top of the other circa £50m of debt that he left is in at time of departure.

Buying shares doesn’t make you a creditor. So the money mentioned in the table aren’t shares.