Derby v Notts County (A) Match Thread

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

I’m assuming nothing, you are. The manager made the decisions and got the result, which is what most of us wanted.

So if we brought on the youngsters and conceded two late goals you would be praising Warne, right.

You assumed plenty.

Up The Rams.

[Foreveram]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I'll repeat: This was a 2nd string Notts County side who also lost to Wolves U21s.

You're suggesting a mixture of our 1st team squad and a couple of academy players would do worse than Wolves' U21 side?

I’m not suggesting anything, you are. The manager put out a team to win, we won. Since when has McGoldrick been second string.

How would we know what team Notts County was going to play when we named our lineup.

I was at the other side of the Trent when Cocu put out a weakened side in the League Cup, that went well.

The fans were singing we’re going to Wembley, which may be a bit premature, but it’s what most fans that go to the games want.

[May Contain Nuts]

44 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

This was the best possible opportunity to give meaningful minutes to a couple of our academy players, which they could then carry that confidence through to the U21 games. It would also give the rest of the U21 squad a sign that they will be given a go in the first team if they perform well.

I remember when Wassall was around, he'd talk of the positive effect that 'his' players getting minutes would have on the rest of the academy lads.

They'd come back buzzing, the rest of the squad would be full of questions, they'd see it as proof that they can get real opportunities at first team level if they work hard, the levels at training would go up a notch.

Even if it wasn't minutes on the pitch, it was time spent alongside senior pros, a higher standard, technically, in training.

When the lads who were in last night's squad go back to the U21s, will they be going back with the same experiences to share? Is there anything they'll learn from the way Warne & his coaches work that they'll be able to take with and use to improve their performances at that level?

Edited October 11, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

16 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

I’m not suggesting anything, you are. The manager put out a team to win, we won. Since when has McGoldrick been second string.

How would we know what team Notts County was going to play when we named our lineup.

I was at the other side of the Trent when Cocu put out a weakened side in the League Cup, that went well.

The fans were singing we’re going to Wembley, which may be a bit premature, but it’s what most fans that go to the games want.

Let's go to Wembley and play Man City U21's - YAY. Will they do half and half scarves with DCFC & MANY CITY U21's on?

[Ghost of Clough]

9 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

I’m not suggesting anything, you are. The manager put out a team to win, we won. Since when has McGoldrick been second string.

How would we know what team Notts County was going to play when we named our lineup.

I was at the other side of the Trent when Cocu put out a weakened side in the League Cup, that went well.

The fans were singing we’re going to Wembley, which may be a bit premature, but it’s what most fans that go to the games want.

At no point have I said we should have started a different 11. I have however said we should have brought the likes of Allen, Davidson and Brown on around the 70 minute mark to give us fresh energy. At this point, our midfield was getting overrun and we were getting nothing out of Collins.

Fornah and Collins were the main liabilities over that final 20 minutes. Allen would have added fresh legs to our midfield, whilst Brown wouldn't be a red card waiting to happen and may have actually known where his feet were in and around the box.

Warne has openly said he wanted to bring them on at 3-0. That's just ridiculous. He's basically saying a couple of young players will cost us a 2 goal lead with less than 20 minutes left on the clock. He didn't even trust them enough to bring 3 on with just 90 seconds of the game remaining, instead just bringing Brown on.

[TINMANTED]

2 hours ago, BathRam72 said:

They put up a pretty good show in my opinion. You still have to beat what is put in front of you. This would be their BIG game in the round robin games and a local Derby. I personally thought we played well for the most part. We just need to be more clinical.

Let's face it if half of the chances went in last night, every one would be waxing lyrical.

We just need to be more clinical.-this is the problem,we dont have  forwards with the ability to be more clinical

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

6 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

I remember when Wassall was around, he'd talk of the positive effect that 'his' players getting minutes would have on the rest of the academy lads.

They'd come back buzzing, the rest of the squad would be full of questions, they'd see it as proof that they can get real opportunities at first team level if they work hard, the levels at training would go up a notch.

Even if it wasn't minutes on the pitch, it was time spent alongside senior pros, a higher standard, technically, in training.

When the lads who were in last night's squad go back to the U21s, will they be going back with the same experiences to share? Is there anything they'll learn from the way Warne & his coaches work that they'll be able to take with and use to improve their performances at at that level?

🤣

[May Contain Nuts]

23 minutes ago, HorsforthRam said:

Warne said he wanted to put the youngsters on but their goal put that on hold 

We'll see, and I hope I'm wrong, but I suspect next time he'll just find some other excuse.

 

[RadioactiveWaste]

After we've made a bit of a "meh" start to the season, especially at home, I think Warne doesn't have the luxuary of viewing Pizza cup as disposable games, he needs to win them for his sake.

If we were top in the league we'd not be seeing strong teams in the pizza cup.

[May Contain Nuts]

1 minute ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

After we've made a bit of a "meh" start to the season, especially at home, I think Warne doesn't have the luxuary of viewing Pizza cup as disposable games, he needs to win them for his sake.

If we were top in the league we'd not be seeing strong teams in the pizza cup.

I can see that side of the argument too.

Warne won the Pizza cup with Rotherham in the same season he last got them promoted.

Anyone know how much he changed the team up for these games in that season?

[RadioactiveWaste]

Just now, Kokosnuss said:

I can see that side of the argument too.

Warne won the Pizza cup with Rotherham in the same season he last got them promoted.

Anyone know how much he changed the team up for these games in that season?

My guess would be not a huge amount just given he worked with a small squad? Honestly don't know though.

[Walkley Ram]

3 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

After we've made a bit of a "meh" start to the season, especially at home, I think Warne doesn't have the luxuary of viewing Pizza cup as disposable games, he needs to win them for his sake.

If we were top in the league we'd not be seeing strong teams in the pizza cup.

I hope the players workloads are better managed than last season, where we ran out of steam at the end. Be a shame for the exact same mistakes to be made twice.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

2 minutes ago, oodledoodle said:

I hope the players workloads are better managed than last season, where we ran out of steam at the end. Be a shame for the exact same mistakes to be made twice.

Should be easier to do this season as the squad does have more depth to it than we had last season.

[Walkley Ram]

1 minute ago, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said:

Should be easier to do this season as the squad does have more depth to it than we had last season.

I think so too, as long as rotation is handled sensibly. At least Sibley will be fresh for the run-in.

[Caerphilly Ram]

35 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

I remember when Wassall was around, he'd talk of the positive effect that 'his' players getting minutes would have on the rest of the academy lads.

They'd come back buzzing, the rest of the squad would be full of questions, they'd see it as proof that they can get real opportunities at first team level if they work hard, the levels at training would go up a notch.

Even if it wasn't minutes on the pitch, it was time spent alongside senior pros, a higher standard, technically, in training.

When the lads who were in last night's squad go back to the U21s, will they be going back with the same experiences to share? Is there anything they'll learn from the way Warne & his coaches work that they'll be able to take with and use to improve their performances at that level?

So is there value to the u21 players having trained with senior pros like Nelson, Cashin, Bradley, Bird, Hourihane, Sibley and co, as well as having been part of the matchday experience with the first team as your account of Wassal’s views suggests? 
Or not, as your final paragraph implies? 
 

Regardless of the ongoing dislike of Warne from some quarters and the concerns that he doesn’t give minutes to youngsters. They were picked, I assume trained alongside the senior pros, and in my limited view will surely go back to the u21s with some positive experience even if it stopped short of stepping over the whitewash.

[Ghost of Clough]

7 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

So is there value to the u21 players having trained with senior pros like Nelson, Cashin, Bradley, Bird, Hourihane, Sibley and co, as well as having been part of the matchday experience with the first team as your account of Wassal’s views suggests? 
Or not, as your final paragraph implies? 
 

Regardless of the ongoing dislike of Warne from some quarters and the concerns that he doesn’t give minutes to youngsters. They were picked, I assume trained alongside the senior pros, and in my limited view will surely go back to the u21s with some positive experience even if it stopped short of stepping over the whitewash.

What sort of message does it send out if the players are called up to the matchday squad knowing Warne won't give them a go anyway?

Darren Robinson was named in a matchday squad for the first time under Warne in October last season, coming off the bench in the Pizza Cup against Mansfield. Since then, he has been named in 7 other squads and never used, including 2 games this season where were were 2-0 up (Lincoln and Carlisle)

[Caerphilly Ram]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

What sort of message does it send out if the players are called up to the matchday squad knowing Warne won't give them a go anyway?

Darren Robinson was named in a matchday squad for the first time under Warne in October last season, coming off the bench in the Pizza Cup against Mansfield. Since then, he has been named in 7 other squads and never used, including 2 games this season where were were 2-0 up (Lincoln and Carlisle)

I get it, you don’t approve of him not giving them minutes.
I simply disagree with the sentiment that none of the experience for those young lads would be positive. Yes they may get their hopes up about some minutes and it could be disheartening for them. But to be recognised and selected has to be meaningful for them also, to train around senior pros some of whom have had great careers must be good experience for their development, and even if Warne and his coaching methods are as rudimentary as some believe it will surely still be step up for a young lad to be training with a majority of fully grown men experienced in their profession. 
 

Yes disappointing to not play, no it’s not a completely negative experience in spite of that is my view. 

[Walkley Ram]

1 hour ago, Foreveram said:

I’m not suggesting anything, you are. The manager put out a team to win, we won. Since when has McGoldrick been second string.

Of their starting 11, their goalkeeper has one league appearance this season. Adebayo-Rowling has 9. Macari has none. Rawlinson has 9, but 33 minutes in the last 5 games. Tipton has no appearances. Nemane has 11, so is a regular starter. Same with O'Brien. Same with Austin. Bostock has 12 appearances. Morias 2. And Didzy 11.

So 4 or 5 of their lineup are fringe players at best.

But you can only beat the team that's in front of you. And some of their fringe players looked decent. I'm surprised their goalkeeper wasn't their main man, he was excellent.

 

 

[May Contain Nuts]

37 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

So is there value to the u21 players having trained with senior pros like Nelson, Cashin, Bradley, Bird, Hourihane, Sibley and co, as well as having been part of the matchday experience with the first team as your account of Wassal’s views suggests? 
Or not, as your final paragraph implies? 
 

Regardless of the ongoing dislike of Warne from some quarters and the concerns that he doesn’t give minutes to youngsters. They were picked, I assume trained alongside the senior pros, and in my limited view will surely go back to the u21s with some positive experience even if it stopped short of stepping over the whitewash.

I'd say the two things aren't mutually exclusive and there's a reason it was posed as a question - I can't really make my mind up and I'm slightly conflicted.

They can gain good valuable experience simply from being around the senior pros, just training with them, being part of the matchday experience but it depends on the way it's handled. It doesn't necessarily follow that the training itself was of a much more advanced nature or taught them anything new. I can see that going and training under Cocu, for example may be an experience like something they've never had (coupled with him being well known for his development of young players) , or even how having England's greatest ever (at the time) goalscorer running the rule over them might awe and inspire.

Warne & his coaches? With the greatest of respect, probably not so much the training alone if not coupled with minutes on the pitch. That's not based on a dislike of Warne but there's nothing  to suggest there's anything in his team's coaching regime that's particular advanced or forward thinking.

It also depends what their expectations were. With this experience being a Papa Johns trophy game against the second string of a team in a lower division, they might have had a higher hopes of actually getting game time than if it had been a league game. There's a chance therefore that the players will go back to the U21s feeling a bit deflated.

Or they could have loved every minute of it, be happy to have even made the bench and be feeling elated. Again that's why it was a question rather than a statement.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Foreveram]

59 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

At no point have I said we should have started a different 11. I have however said we should have brought the likes of Allen, Davidson and Brown on around the 70 minute mark to give us fresh energy. At this point, our midfield was getting overrun and we were getting nothing out of Collins.

Fornah and Collins were the main liabilities over that final 20 minutes. Allen would have added fresh legs to our midfield, whilst Brown wouldn't be a red card waiting to happen and may have actually known where his feet were in and around the box.

Warne has openly said he wanted to bring them on at 3-0. That's just ridiculous. He's basically saying a couple of young players will cost us a 2 goal lead with less than 20 minutes left on the clock. He didn't even trust them enough to bring 3 on with just 90 seconds of the game remaining, instead just bringing Brown on.

I respect your views and balanced arguments, unlike some that just want Warne out regardless. I 

Nevertheless we were there to win a football match and this was achieved.

If we had bought the kids on maybe they would have gone on to complete the victory, but maybe they wouldn’t, and then lots of fans would have said he made the wrong decision.

Warne took Rotherham to Wembley and won this competition, I will be happy if he does the same with us, and so will around 40,000 other fans, some that haven’t been near a game for years.