Derby v Notts County (A) Match Thread

[duncanjwitham]

40 minutes ago, ExiledinDerby said:

I’m with you completely on this I really am. I watch a fair bit of academy football and the ones I’ve discussed really do have the potential to be in our first team for years to come if developed properly and given a chance. 
 

I’m going to ignore Allen and Davidson for now as I will the likes of Thompson, Hawkins and MacAndrew in the u18s as they really aren’t close to being ready for the first team yet but Robinson, Radcliffe, Brown and Evans really do need exposure and minutes to develop them and this cup for me is perfect for it. It’s meaningless, in fact play them in all the cups because we aren’t winning the FA or Carabao cup so give them Minutes give them exposure and increase their value in the mean time whilst showing them they have a future here. 

If I was a club owner, it would be official club policy (to the extent it would be written into managers contracts) that there would be at least one academy player on the bench in every single game.  And I'm not including the likes of Thompson or Sibley who've broken through, I mean someone like Brown or Radcliffe who hasn't yet (you can argue about the exact definitions here, I suppose).  7 subs is plenty of room to allow for it, and it takes all the pressure off the manager if it's club policy (in terms of dropping a senior player for an academy lad).  And any time we're a couple of goals up in match, there's always someone there ready to give some minutes to, rather than it being blind luck that we have a player to bring on in a game we're comfortable in.

[SKRam]

On 10/10/2023 at 21:16, sage said:

So you are making a point, admitting you don't know what you are talking about, then explain that you don't care that you have no grasp of the facts. 

They made 8 changes from their first choice XI as they have an important game on Saturday and we have a free Saturday. 

‘‘Admitting I don’t know what I’m talking about’ and No grasp of the facts’ well thanks for clearing that one up for me. I know my place. And I’ll never mention this pesky trophy again….. or maybe I will. 

[sage]

7 minutes ago, SKRam said:

‘‘Admitting I don’t know what I’m talking about’ and No grasp of the facts’ well thanks for clearing that one up for me. I know my place. And I’ll never mention this pesky trophy again….. or maybe I will. 

Well you know good TV. Love Slow Horses 

[brady1993]

12 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

I'm not even sure it's down to trust.  You either have to commit fully to being a team that develops academy players, or you just don't bother at all.  If you genuinely want academy lads to progress through to the first team consistently, you have to be willing to gamble a bit on them sometimes.  Give them some minutes whenever you can, and be aware that it might cost you results in that game, but be willing to accept that, because long-term you will be better off as a club.

If we don't ever play Brown because we don't trust him, he's never going to make the mistakes that he can learn from, and become a player that we can trust.  And then instead of being a 17 year old that needs to develop, he's suddenly going to be a 21 year old that needs to develop, and by then it's probably too late.  Players don't just spring from the academy fully formed and trustworthy.

And obviously I'm not saying throw players in before they're ready at all, or even that we should have put all of the youngsters on much earlier the other night.  But if we think Brown is a genuine championship-level prospect, he should be getting at *least* a couple of hundred first-team minutes over the course of this season.  If he's only getting 2 minutes in a tin-pot cup when we were 2-0 up, he's going to get nowhere near that, especially when he barely even makes the bench in league games.

If you aren't going to be willing to commit to it, you might get the odd Will Hughes-type that comes through and just looks like a first-team player from day one, but you'll never get the conveyor-belt of players that teams like Southampton seem to manage.

I think you hit at the core of why I think keeping Warne on board is going to hurt us long term and isn't the neutral option people often opine it to be. 

You have to take a step back and realise how asymmetrical the footballing system is and how uneven the playing field is to succeed at the highest levels. A club like ours either needs a robust plan to overcome that sustainably as we will likely never be big enough or attract the kinds of backing to seriously compete. (And even if we do we risk the trajectory of what happened under MM). 

Essentially we need something or a set of things we can do differently in order to level things out. And if you look at the success of clubs who have some degree of sustainability and not just relied on boom/bust investment they all have that element to them. I.e. Brentford, Southampton. 

The one major advantage we have as a club is geographical in that we have quite a sizeable catchment area where we can realistically compete for talent at youth levels, talent that otherwise might be prohibitive to acquire after they've matured. But we need to plan with this in mind. We need to have strong development pathways from academy to first team with firm incentives about taking risks on bringing people through and giving them time. 

It's what was so frustrating about last season to me. Last season was practically as free a hit as you get as a club. It was a season to get our ducks in a row and reset as a club. We should have been giving serious game time to developing academy players and recent academy graduates like Thompson. It was a season we could afford to take risks on players  This would have given us a solid foundation of a squad to work from that would improve over time. Instead we kick Thompson on loan and then find ourselves short of cover. Warne is clearly reluctant to trust academy players to the point where its actively detrimental. In a nothing game with a lead once again we were playing players past the point of exhaustion (some of which like bird who are coming off injuries) rather than giving someone game time. 

It feeds into my feelings that as a manager he struggles to see beyond the surface level and struggles to see the bigger picture whether it's tactical, player fitness management or overall club development.

[RoyMac5]

7 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I think you hit at the core of why I think keeping Warne on board is going to hurt us long term and isn't the neutral option people often opine it to be. 

You have to take a step back and realise how asymmetrical the footballing system is and how uneven the playing field is to succeed at the highest levels. A club like ours either needs a robust plan to overcome that sustainably as we will likely never be big enough or attract the kinds of backing to seriously compete. (And even if we do we risk the trajectory of what happened under MM). 

Essentially we need something or a set of things we can do differently in order to level things out. And if you look at the success of clubs who have some degree of sustainability and not just relied on boom/bust investment they all have that element to them. I.e. Brentford, Southampton. 

The one major advantage we have as a club is geographical in that we have quite a sizeable catchment area where we can realistically compete for talent at youth levels, talent that otherwise might be prohibitive to acquire after they've matured. But we need to plan with this in mind. We need to have strong development pathways from academy to first team with firm incentives about taking risks on bringing people through and giving them time. 

It's what was so frustrating about last season to me. Last season was practically as free a hit as you get as a club. It was a season to get our ducks in a row and reset as a club. We should have been giving serious game time to developing academy players and recent academy graduates like Thompson. It was a season we could afford to take risks on players  This would have given us a solid foundation of a squad to work from that would improve over time. Instead we kick Thompson on loan and then find ourselves short of cover. Warne is clearly reluctant to trust academy players to the point where its actively detrimental. In a nothing game with a lead once again we were playing players past the point of exhaustion (some of which like bird who are coming off injuries) rather than giving someone game time. 

It feeds into my feelings that as a manager he struggles to see beyond the surface level and struggles to see the bigger picture whether it's tactical, player fitness management or overall club development.

Did you watch last night's England u21s? There was some talent on show there. I think that it's pointless us having a Cat 1 Academy if the first team manager isn't actively part of their development. I can't see why young players would come here over bigger clubs academies. The way the first team play was light years away from the way the England U21s set out. There is no way they'd want to come here and think it would aid their footballing development. 

[jimtastic56]

46 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Did you watch last night's England u21s? There was some talent on show there. I think that it's pointless us having a Cat 1 Academy if the first team manager isn't actively part of their development. I can't see why young players would come here over bigger clubs academies. The way the first team play was light years away from the way the England U21s set out. There is no way they'd want to come here and think it would aid their footballing development. 

I saw the goals . This does worry me about our long term future . Paul might be the League 1 Pep , but he is 50 years old and his ideas are little outdated. I don’t think a 16 year old Will Hughes would get much of a look in.

[Archied]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

Did you watch last night's England u21s? There was some talent on show there. I think that it's pointless us having a Cat 1 Academy if the first team manager isn't actively part of their development. I can't see why young players would come here over bigger clubs academies. The way the first team play was light years away from the way the England U21s set out. There is no way they'd want to come here and think it would aid their footballing development. 

I’m personally wondering and have been for a little while if the business model of cat 1 academy for clubs like derby is under attack and being eroded by the bigger clubs ,

if you find a gem which is always hard it’s hard to compete for them and then if you do get them they bugger off to a club like Man City for next to nowt if they turn out to have real promise , it’s worked for a while for clubs like Southampton but I’m not too sure how much longer the money ,player loan system , number of subs ect is going to allow this 🤷🏻‍♂️
greed is killing the game even to the point of seeing a gem develop , give great performances for smaller ( money wise ) clubs then at least sell for big money

Edited October 13, 2023 by Archied

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, Archied said:

I’m personally wondering and have been for a little while if the business model of cat 1 academy for clubs like derby is under attack and being eroded by the bigger clubs ,

if you find a gem which is always hard it’s hard to compete for them and then if you do get them they bugger off to a club like Man City for next to nowt if they turn out to have real promise , it’s worked for a while for clubs like Southampton but I’m not too sure how much longer the money ,player loan system , number of subs is going to allow this 🤷🏻‍♂️

Did you see the way England played? We aren't going to have players that slot into that way of playing. Whatever level our Academy is at that, the main point still stands. Which youngsters would want to come here and be readied for our first teams style of play?

Edited October 13, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Archied]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Did you see the way England played? We aren't going to have players that slot into that way of playing. Whatever level our Academy is at that, the main point still stands. Which youngsters would want to come here and be readied for our first teams style of play?

Every topic or opinion roy??🤷🏻‍♂️

[Archied]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Did you see the way England played? We aren't going to have players that slot into that way of playing. Whatever level our Academy is at that, the main point still stands. Which youngsters would want to come here and be readied for our first teams style of play?

My point was that if they show any real talent and ability to slot into that level they are poached quicksmart for peanuts

Edited October 13, 2023 by Archied

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, Archied said:

My point was that if they show any real talent and ability to slot into that level they are poached quicksmart for peanuts

Norwich are probably the best example to compare us with. They have a Cat 1 academy and have hovered around a league position where we have spent the majority of our history. They also have a strong history of giving academy players a route into their first team. Omobamidele, Godfrey, Lewis and the Murphy twins being recent examples of players they've brought through and sold for a decent amount. There's no reason why we couldn't do the same.

[RoyMac5]

23 minutes ago, Archied said:

Every topic or opinion roy??🤷🏻‍♂️

Don't you think it's pertinent? Did you watch the England U21 game? Do you think that we are going to be able to convince good youngsters to come here and play 'get it out wide and cross it' football? That is important don't you think when running an Academy?

[nottingram]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

I’m personally wondering and have been for a little while if the business model of cat 1 academy for clubs like derby is under attack and being eroded by the bigger clubs ,

if you find a gem which is always hard it’s hard to compete for them and then if you do get them they bugger off to a club like Man City for next to nowt if they turn out to have real promise , it’s worked for a while for clubs like Southampton but I’m not too sure how much longer the money ,player loan system , number of subs ect is going to allow this 🤷🏻‍♂️
greed is killing the game even to the point of seeing a gem develop , give great performances for smaller ( money wise ) clubs then at least sell for big money

The fees we have received for some of those gems are not “next to nowt”, they are among the biggest in our history. Multi million fees for Delap and Gordon are not to be sniffed at and while the system does have issues any pressure to develop the player is not on our hands anymore, and neither are particularly flying.

What we need to be better at is maximising the value of the not necessarily outstanding (as in picked up by PL clubs) we produce. That’s what Forest are or were really good at and we are not or have not been. The values of players like Knight, Bird and Sibley has been decimated, not only by our situation but by bad management. It should not be hard for a club like Derby to produce players who can slot in in L1 for fun.

[Foreveram]

2 hours ago, jimtastic56 said:

I saw the goals . This does worry me about our long term future . Paul might be the League 1 Pep , but he is 50 years old and his ideas are little outdated. I don’t think a 16 year old Will Hughes would get much of a look in.

What’s 50 years old got to do with anything. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Guardiola 52.

Klopp 56.

Mourinho 60.

Ancelotti 64.

[sage]

11 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I think you hit at the core of why I think keeping Warne on board is going to hurt us long term and isn't the neutral option people often opine it to be. 

You have to take a step back and realise how asymmetrical the footballing system is and how uneven the playing field is to succeed at the highest levels. A club like ours either needs a robust plan to overcome that sustainably as we will likely never be big enough or attract the kinds of backing to seriously compete. (And even if we do we risk the trajectory of what happened under MM). 

Essentially we need something or a set of things we can do differently in order to level things out. And if you look at the success of clubs who have some degree of sustainability and not just relied on boom/bust investment they all have that element to them. I.e. Brentford, Southampton. 

The one major advantage we have as a club is geographical in that we have quite a sizeable catchment area where we can realistically compete for talent at youth levels, talent that otherwise might be prohibitive to acquire after they've matured. But we need to plan with this in mind. We need to have strong development pathways from academy to first team with firm incentives about taking risks on bringing people through and giving them time. 

It's what was so frustrating about last season to me. Last season was practically as free a hit as you get as a club. It was a season to get our ducks in a row and reset as a club. We should have been giving serious game time to developing academy players and recent academy graduates like Thompson. It was a season we could afford to take risks on players  This would have given us a solid foundation of a squad to work from that would improve over time. Instead we kick Thompson on loan and then find ourselves short of cover. Warne is clearly reluctant to trust academy players to the point where its actively detrimental. In a nothing game with a lead once again we were playing players past the point of exhaustion (some of which like bird who are coming off injuries) rather than giving someone game time. 

It feeds into my feelings that as a manager he struggles to see beyond the surface level and struggles to see the bigger picture whether it's tactical, player fitness management or overall club development.

And much of this is down to the difference between managing Rotherham and Derby.

It's not just the level of expectation that's higher, its the ceiling. We have the potential to progress to heights far beyond that of Rotherham.

This means a long term strategy is much more important. Part of that is developing a style of football which works now, but will only need to be tweaked at the next level, a style which will help us attract quality loans from clubs higher up the leagues.

 

[jimtastic56]

3 hours ago, Foreveram said:

What’s 50 years old got to do with anything. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Guardiola 52.

Klopp 56.

Mourinho 60.

Ancelotti 64.

You are comparing Warne with some top trophy winning managers there.They get top world class jobs because of their success rate. If Warne had done anything in his thirties he could be up there with them and not in the 3rd tier. P.S I don’t want Warne sacked , just some fresh ideas.

[Walkley Ram]

4 hours ago, Foreveram said:

What’s 50 years old got to do with anything. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Guardiola 52.

Klopp 56.

Mourinho 60.

Ancelotti 64.

And none of them have won a single Papa John's trophy. Frauds, honestly.

[Foreveram]

24 minutes ago, jimtastic56 said:

You are comparing Warne with some top trophy winning managers there.They get top world class jobs because of their success rate. If Warne had done anything in his thirties he could be up there with them and not in the 3rd tier. P.S I don’t want Warne sacked , just some fresh ideas.

I’m not comparing them at all, you said he is 50 and his ideas are outdated, I said what’s being 50 got to do with it when they are all successful managers and are over 50.

[angieram]

Six of today's starting lineup against Mansfield started on Tuesday night.

[oomarkwright]

10 minutes ago, angieram said:

Six of today's starting lineup against Mansfield started on Tuesday night.