Pure WarneBall

[Van der MoodHoover]

8 hours ago, sage said:

If all you are interested in is the result you may as well just sit at home and wait for the final scores.

Oh wait...😀

Don't go nicking my MO.........

[IslandExile]

56 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

we should all know how significantly one player can change the way a team plays!

Yeah, I remember an Everton fan years ago on a football phone in saying: "we're a one man team, we just haven't signed him yet".

[Rammy03]

2 hours ago, i-Ram said:

Oh yes he is. 

In what way? Please elaborate.

[MickD]

17 hours ago, Kernow said:

No, I was hoping to find out soon though.

You're in the wrong place

[IlsonDerby]

The principles of what he wants to do aren’t bad. High press. Wingbacks high up the pitch. Loads of width. Crosses going in and goals scored. 
 

My only worry is that when we do the high press I don’t feel like it’s been coached that well into them. We don’t seem to go in packs. We seem to just run towards the player in possession and then when he moves the ball along we run to the next player. It often means that teams can play through our press and that’s why we end up feeling like teams attack us quite easily (in my opinion). 

[SSD]

I wouldn't mind if we hoofed it to the heavens and Tony Pulis became our defence coach.

Just get us out of this bloody division at all costs. I can't bare to watch us lose to Port Vale at home again.

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

The principles of what he wants to do aren’t bad. High press. Wingbacks high up the pitch. Loads of width. Crosses going in and goals scored. 
 

My only worry is that when we do the high press I don’t feel like it’s been coached that well into them. We don’t seem to go in packs. We seem to just run towards the player in possession and then when he moves the ball along we run to the next player. It often means that teams can play through our press and that’s why we end up feeling like teams attack us quite easily (in my opinion). 

I don't get the "want loads of crosses" thing in combinations with playing wingbacks.  If you want loads of crosses, then why make it harder for your wide players to get forward and cross it?  Just play wingers + fullbacks and then your wingers can get forward with proper support, and protection behind them.  I assume he's doing it because he also wants 2 forwards on the pitch, and you can't really get away without 3 in midfield in modern football.  But if you can't execute your strategy, without actively undermining it, then maybe change your strategy?

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I don't get the "want loads of crosses" thing in combinations with playing wingbacks.  If you want loads of crosses, then why make it harder for your wide players to get forward and cross it?  Just play wingers + fullbacks and then your wingers can get forward with proper support, and protection behind them.  I assume he's doing it because he also wants 2 forwards on the pitch, and you can't really get away without 3 in midfield in modern football.  But if you can't execute your strategy, without actively undermining it, then maybe change your strategy?

I suspect there'll be plenty of times when our wing backs are so high they are basically wingers. Then we'll end up with with almost 5 attackers on the pitch giving great options on the ball but also starting the press and making it tough for the opposition to get out, but still keep the defensive integrity of 3 at the back and a midfielder sitting.

[duncanjwitham]

2 minutes ago, Srg said:

I suspect there'll be plenty of times when our wing backs are so high they are basically wingers. Then we'll end up with with almost 5 attackers on the pitch giving great options on the ball but also starting the press and making it tough for the opposition to get out, but still keep the defensive integrity of 3 at the back and a midfielder sitting.

But the problem there is we get killed if/when they do break on us.  The penalty against Sheff Wed in the final game was exactly that - Jason Knight gets caught up field and they're basically immediately running straight at Curtis Davies.

Cashin isn't exactly the quickest, and I don't think Bradley is either, so the last thing we want is to set up situations where the opposition get to run at them repeatedly during games.

[Srg]

9 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

But the problem there is we get killed if/when they do break on us.  The penalty against Sheff Wed in the final game was exactly that - Jason Knight gets caught up field and they're basically immediately running straight at Curtis Davies.

Cashin isn't exactly the quickest, and I don't think Bradley is either, so the last thing we want is to set up situations where the opposition get to run at them repeatedly during games.

Which is the beauty of the formation, if that's the case, they drop back, much more than wingers do.

Problem is, when we've played this formation in the past, not just this past season, we've not had any actual wing backs in the squad. It's a specialist position, and we shoe-horned every time.

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, Srg said:

Which is the beauty of the formation, if that's the case, they drop back, much more than wingers do.

Problem is, when we've played this formation in the past, not just this past season, we've not had any actual wing backs in the squad. It's a specialist position, and we shoe-horned every time.

But if they drop back that far, then all of your attacking threat is gone, if you're building your team around lots of crosses from the wide players.  You can't simultaneously have players pushed right up and sat right back.  And if you want players literally sprinting from goal line to goal line to try and do that (which is what I believe Warne thinks should happen), then you're just going to end up with players so tired that they don't do either job properly.  If Jason Knight isn't capable of running around enough to do the job you want, then I'm not sure anyone is. 

And for what it's worth, Elder has never played wingback in his career (as far as I can see), and the Peterborough fans all seem to think Ward is far better as a winger than a wingback 🤷‍♂️.

[Sparkle]

16 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

But if they drop back that far, then all of your attacking threat is gone, if you're building your team around lots of crosses from the wide players.  You can't simultaneously have players pushed right up and sat right back.  And if you want players literally sprinting from goal line to goal line to try and do that (which is what I believe Warne thinks should happen), then you're just going to end up with players so tired that they don't do either job properly.  If Jason Knight isn't capable of running around enough to do the job you want, then I'm not sure anyone is. 

And for what it's worth, Elder has never played wingback in his career (as far as I can see), and the Peterborough fans all seem to think Ward is far better as a winger than a wingback 🤷‍♂️.

Expect the crosses to fly in from the half way line usually to the opposition goalkeeper 

[May Contain Nuts]

39 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

But if they drop back that far, then all of your attacking threat is gone, if you're building your team around lots of crosses from the wide players.  You can't simultaneously have players pushed right up and sat right back.  And if you want players literally sprinting from goal line to goal line to try and do that (which is what I believe Warne thinks should happen), then you're just going to end up with players so tired that they don't do either job properly.  If Jason Knight isn't capable of running around enough to do the job you want, then I'm not sure anyone is. 

And for what it's worth, Elder has never played wingback in his career (as far as I can see), and the Peterborough fans all seem to think Ward is far better as a winger than a wingback 🤷‍♂️.

...but at the same time, it's the sort of stuff Warne had Rotherham doing in the season they went up in 2nd place, scoring 70 league goals and only conceding 33, conceding that few is remarkable for an attacking team and doesn't speak of a defence horribly exposed. Not that that season wasn't without its issues but it's proof of concept.

Whether we've recruited the suitable players time will tell, although I'm not 100% confident that we've got or are getting the right mix up front and in AM as currently we're lacking a few of the key elements which ultimately made that season a success. They relied on crosses and goals from range but Collins isn't Ladapo/Smith & Bird isn't Barlaser (not saying he was an AM)

 

2 hours ago, SSD said:

Just get us out of this bloody division at all costs.

At all costs? What if one of the costs is us ending back in this division the following season because the style of play doesn't evolve and doesn't work against Championship opposition? Warne was doing well with Rotherham when he went up the last time, but without him completing the season it can't on its own be taken as evidence we'd be fine.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Kokosnuss said:

...but at the same time, it's the sort of stuff Warne had Rotherham doing in the season they went up in 2nd place, scoring 70 league goals and only conceding 33 so the concept clearly does work. Not that that season wasn't without its issues but it's proof of concept.

Whether we've recruited the suitable players time will tell, although I'm not 100% confident that we've got or are getting the right mix up front and in AM as currently we're lacking a few of the key elements which ultimately made that season a success.

It regularly resulted in his teams burning out later in the season.  And we're already in the position where half of the squad still aren't "Paul Warne-type players", and a bunch of the new signings have missed some or most of pre-season and will be chasing those crazy fitness-levels for quite a while.

It's also failed catastrophically every time it was tried at Championship level, where the opposition are basically all fitter and/or more talented than in League One.  You *might* be able to get hold of a couple of wingbacks who can do the job of a  L1 winger and a L1 fullback at the same time.  The pool of players that can do the job of a Championship winger and fullback at the same time, is significantly smaller.  And I suspect at prem level it's non-existent.

[May Contain Nuts]

21 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

It regularly resulted in his teams burning out later in the season.  And we're already in the position where half of the squad still aren't "Paul Warne-type players", and a bunch of the new signings have missed some or most of pre-season and will be chasing those crazy fitness-levels for quite a while.

It's also failed catastrophically every time it was tried at Championship level, where the opposition are basically all fitter and/or more talented than in League One.  You *might* be able to get hold of a couple of wingbacks who can do the job of a  L1 winger and a L1 fullback at the same time.  The pool of players that can do the job of a Championship winger and fullback at the same time, is significantly smaller.  And I suspect at prem level it's non-existent.

I thought that but I'm not really sure it's as much of a trend as has been made out. I don't think you can level it at their Championship seasons because they were crap pretty much throughout and naturally had poor runs of form at various differing times.

Yes it happened to Rotherham in 2021/22 and us last season but 2017/18 just looks like the standard streaky patches of a play-off team,  and 2019/20 was cut short in March. Without having followed the seasons closely and read the thoughts of fans at the time we can't really say whether they'd burned out of not.

Of course I do share the same concerns, mostly, as discussed at length last season. I'm just not ready to take such a nihilistic view of the upcoming season(s) under Warne and write them off as leaving us back at square one (even if I'm wary that it could happen). I did see signs of improvement toward the end of last season in general, and although I think some of those improvements seem to have been shelved for a more back to basics approach, I doubt they've been forgotten - we just have to see how it plays out.

Edited July 19, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[IlsonDerby]

7 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

But the problem there is we get killed if/when they do break on us.  The penalty against Sheff Wed in the final game was exactly that - Jason Knight gets caught up field and they're basically immediately running straight at Curtis Davies.

Cashin isn't exactly the quickest, and I don't think Bradley is either, so the last thing we want is to set up situations where the opposition get to run at them repeatedly during games.

Eh? Davies fluffed up an easy back pass under a bit of pressure. Everything should have been well under control.

[S8TY]

8 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

But the problem there is we get killed if/when they do break on us.  The penalty against Sheff Wed in the final game was exactly that - Jason Knight gets caught up field and they're basically immediately running straight at Curtis Davies.

Cashin isn't exactly the quickest, and I don't think Bradley is either, so the last thing we want is to set up situations where the opposition get to run at them repeatedly during games.

This is simply not true regarding the Weds game 

we battered them in the first half and a mistake cost us from a back pass and should never have been a red card 

we battered a team who got promoted but didn’t score that’s the positives I took from that game 

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, IlsonDerby said:

Eh? Davies fluffed up an easy back pass under a bit of pressure. Everything should have been well under control.

27 minutes ago, S8TY said:

This is simply not true regarding the Weds game 

we battered them in the first half and a mistake cost us from a back pass and should never have been a red card 

we battered a team who got promoted but didn’t score that’s the positives I took from that game 

That situation all comes from Knight getting caught up field, leaving a massive gap in behind him.  They get runners into that gap and that's what pressures Davies into the mistake.  

This is the build up to the penalty incident.  The red square is roughly where a traditional fullback would normally be.  The red circle is where Knight actually is, with Forsyth next to him, also caught upfield.  Davies ends up with the ball at is feet, with 2 opposing players on him quickly, with no cover and no passing options. Yes he fluffs up the backpass, but if you keep putting players into situations like that, they are going to make mistakes like that some of the time.

And the rest of the match doesn't really matter for the specific point I was making.  If you push your wingbacks right up, you are exposing yourself to situations like this, and sometimes that's going to cost you the game.  Like it did in this case.

[Srg]

3 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

That situation all comes from Knight getting caught up field, leaving a massive gap in behind him.  They get runners into that gap and that's what pressures Davies into the mistake.  

This is the build up to the penalty incident.  The red square is roughly where a traditional fullback would normally be.  The red circle is where Knight actually is, with Forsyth next to him, also caught upfield.  Davies ends up with the ball at is feet, with 2 opposing players on him quickly, with no cover and no passing options. Yes he fluffs up the backpass, but if you keep putting players into situations like that, they are going to make mistakes like that some of the time.

And the rest of the match doesn't really matter for the specific point I was making.  If you push your wingbacks right up, you are exposing yourself to situations like this, and sometimes that's going to cost you the game.  Like it did in this case.

You do realise this situation can happen with any other formation if you’re attacking enough?

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, Srg said:

You do realise this situation can happen with any other formation if you’re attacking enough?

It can obviously happen in a back 4 with wingers too, but it won't normally happen (or anywhere near as much at least) if you have a fullback covering behind.  The winger can push up as much as he likes then.  If you've only got one wide player on each side and you're explicitly telling them to push right up, you're basically setting out to deliberately engineer this situation.