Day Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: It can obviously happen in a back 4 with wingers too, but it won't normally happen (or anywhere near as much at least) if you have a fullback covering behind. The winger can push up as much as he likes then. If you've only got one wide player on each side and you're explicitly telling them to push right up, you're basically setting out to deliberately engineer this situation. Football has changed from the traditional winger setup, full backs are expected to cross the half way line, overlap the wide attackers who cut inside. We've seen it for years, even under McClaren who is widely regarded as bringing the most entertaining football we have seen for years, we had Forsyth pushed right up in the opposition half putting balls in. At times, teams will be caught out, it's going to happen, it's how we scored our goals under Rowett, waiting for the opposition to commit, win the ball and exploit the gaps. If we revert to the traditional touchline hugging wingers with full backs refusing to cross the half way line, we will struggle to make any kind of impact going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram1988 Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 Bradley Johnson on the bench! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 24 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: It can obviously happen in a back 4 with wingers too, but it won't normally happen (or anywhere near as much at least) if you have a fullback covering behind. The winger can push up as much as he likes then. If you've only got one wide player on each side and you're explicitly telling them to push right up, you're basically setting out to deliberately engineer this situation. The way you talk, there’s no point anyone playing this formation despite it being extremely common. Caerphilly Ram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 8 minutes ago, David said: Football has changed from the traditional winger setup, full backs are expected to cross the half way line, overlap the wide attackers who cut inside. We've seen it for years, even under McClaren who is widely regarded as bringing the most entertaining football we have seen for years, we had Forsyth pushed right up in the opposition half putting balls in. At times, teams will be caught out, it's going to happen, it's how we scored our goals under Rowett, waiting for the opposition to commit, win the ball and exploit the gaps. If we revert to the traditional touchline hugging wingers with full backs refusing to cross the half way line, we will struggle to make any kind of impact going forward. The suggestion that sparked all this was that our wingbacks would be playing like traditional wingers most of the time, pushed right up and staying wide. That's not what modern fullbacks do, they have to support a winger, with the option to overlap when the game allows it, but they're still fundamentally playing as fullbacks. So the majority of the time when we lose the ball out wide, the fullback is in behind covering. Yes, sometimes it will break down and there will be gaps in behind, but in the setup people are suggesting we will be playing, if we lose the ball there's 80 yards of open space for the opposition to pour into *every* time. RoyMac5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 1 minute ago, duncanjwitham said: The suggestion that sparked all this was that our wingbacks would be playing like traditional wingers most of the time, pushed right up and staying wide. That's not what modern fullbacks do, they have to support a winger, with the option to overlap when the game allows it, but they're still fundamentally playing as fullbacks. So the majority of the time when we lose the ball out wide, the fullback is in behind covering. Yes, sometimes it will break down and there will be gaps in behind, but in the setup people are suggesting we will be playing, if we lose the ball there's 80 yards of open space for the opposition to pour into *every* time. Ideally your defensive midfielder of the trio drops back to create a back 4 when being hit on the counter, pushing the wider centre backs into full backs whilst your wing backs recover so you're never short.. You have to remember we was playing midfielders in those positions last season, players that were filling in and not your traditionally trained wing backs that will know when to go and when to stay back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 4 minutes ago, Srg said: The way you talk, there’s no point anyone playing this formation despite it being extremely common. No, I'm saying you play it for a specific reason. Often it's because you want 3 men in midfield while still having 2 strikers on the pitch, so you compromise on being weaker out wide as a trade-off. You take the risk of getting exposed out wide, or being less effective attacking in wider areas, because you want more control in midfield and an extra man in the box. What doesn't make sense to me is, if you explicitly want to get wide players putting lots of crosses into the box, why play a system that, by design, leaves you weaker out wide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
europia Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 On 18/07/2023 at 12:20, IslandExile said: Now that 'ol bobble hat Warney (I do like him honestly) is in the throes of assembling a team "in his own image", do we expect to see WarneBall in its purest form? I fear but hope it's not just: run around a lot hoof the ball down the channels get to it and cross it early scrap for it in the box score goal defend the lead by running about even more Yes, I fully expect this to be the entertainment for the coming season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gringo Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 Will he appoint an aerial coach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walkley Ram Posted July 19, 2023 Share Posted July 19, 2023 25 minutes ago, Gringo said: Will he appoint an aerial coach? They'll probably stick to driving on the roads to away games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatRam Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 On 18/07/2023 at 13:25, i-Ram said: Makes you wonder how Liverpool, City even Arsenal score so many passing around their own box for 90 minutes. Man city have some of the greatest footballers in the world yet they still concede daft goals being caught out at the back. How many years have we been trying to pass out from the back?. Man city are boring as hell to watch. Im solely on about the entertainment value , paying to watch the ball not leave our own half isnt something i liked spending money on 😃 Jubbs and IslandExile 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, CodnorRam said: Man city have some of the greatest footballers in the world yet they still concede daft goals being caught out at the back. How many years have we been trying to pass out from the back?. Man city are boring as hell to watch. Im solely on about the entertainment value , paying to watch the ball not leave our own half isnt something i liked spending money on 😃 Hilarious 😊 IslandExile, Jubbs and i-Ram 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, CodnorRam said: Man city have some of the greatest footballers in the world yet they still concede daft goals being caught out at the back. How many years have we been trying to pass out from the back?. Man city are boring as hell to watch. Im solely on about the entertainment value , paying to watch the ball not leave our own half isnt something i liked spending money on 😃 Man City spent more time in their opponents defensive third than any other team in the league last season, and likewise, the least time in their own defensive third... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 17 minutes ago, CodnorRam said: Man city have some of the greatest footballers in the world yet they still concede daft goals being caught out at the back. How many years have we been trying to pass out from the back?. Man city are boring as hell to watch. Im solely on about the entertainment value , paying to watch the ball not leave our own half isnt something i liked spending money on 😃 Passing around the back for possession sake is not what I am talkng about. I enjoy passing football, and you don't need to be the greatest footballers in the world to play decent passing football through the final two thirds of the pitch. If you find Man City boring as hell, and find Warneball (3 or 4 passes, lose it, chase hard to get it back) entertaining, we really have nothing in common when it comes to appreciating good football. duncanjwitham, bcnram, Jubbs and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jubbs Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 30 minutes ago, CodnorRam said: Man city are boring as hell to watch i-Ram and IslandExile 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 Comparing any league one team in style to Man City is quite possibly the most pointless thing ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duncanjwitham Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Srg said: Comparing any league one team in style to Man City is quite possibly the most pointless thing ever. Absolutely. League one teams only have to do it against League One defences, so it should be so much easier to play possession football, yeah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said: Absolutely. League one teams only have to do it against League One defences, so it should be so much easier to play possession football, yeah? Not really, League One players don't have the touch, vision etc required to play that patient game. The biggest problem, and we found this playing patient passing football in the Championship, is the off ball movement really lacks. Makes breaking teams down playing at that speed nearly impossible. Bit of a nonsense discussion anyway. Only thing that really matters, is Warne has already noted that passing it side to side is all well and good but it needs to be done quickly otherwise the defence shifts over and you gain nothing from it. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. Any talk of hoofball is completely overblown. Carnero, BOB BIGGS and YorkshireRam 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 1 minute ago, Srg said: Not really, League One players don't have the touch, vision etc required to play that patient game. The biggest problem, and we found this playing patient passing football in the Championship, is the off ball movement really lacks. Makes breaking teams down playing at that speed nearly impossible. Bit of a nonsense discussion anyway. Only thing that really matters, is Warne has already noted that passing it side to side is all well and good but it needs to be done quickly otherwise the defence shifts over and you gain nothing from it. I don't think anyone can disagree with that. Any talk of hoofball is completely overblown. Any hope of keepball is overly optimistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Srg Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, i-Ram said: Any hope of keepball is overly optimistic. 6th in the League in possession last season. Guess we will see next season, but I'd take having less of the ball to score more goals and create more chances. Andrew3000 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raich Carter Posted July 21, 2023 Share Posted July 21, 2023 (edited) On 19/07/2023 at 18:40, duncanjwitham said: It can obviously happen in a back 4 with wingers too, but it won't normally happen (or anywhere near as much at least) if you have a fullback covering behind. The winger can push up as much as he likes then. If you've only got one wide player on each side and you're explicitly telling them to push right up, you're basically setting out to deliberately engineer this situation. Which is why you need grafting full backs who are good decision makers to avoid that scenario - I.E. early crosses from deep (as we've seen in the pre-season games) so they can get back as opposed to driving the the by-line as that's a loooong way back. And that's why you have a back three to block/buy time for full backs to get back. We had many great seasons under TBE playing this system and I personally love it - think it's much more dynamic and exciting that 4-4-2. Edited July 21, 2023 by Raich Carter FlyBritishMidland 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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