Pat Lyons departs

[Animal is a Ram]

I'm not hugely surprised, seems the whole academy is undergoing as much surgery, Matt Hale has a huge task on.

Lyons and Wass did an incredible job, it's a shame we never were able to capitalise in a cash sense.

[sage]

Wasn't this announced a week ago?

[IslandExile]

I thought he'd gone a while ago, no, soon after Wassell.

[Magicman]

1 minute ago, Animal is a Ram said:

I'm not hugely surprised, seems the whole academy is undergoing as much surgery, Matt Hale has a huge task on.

Lyons and Wass did an incredible job, it's a shame we never were able to capitalise in a cash sense.

I think we did ok selling Bogle Lowe for millions and bringing forward Bird, Cashin, Thomo, Ebosole too plus adding Williams, Plange and Ebowei from other clubs academies. 

[Rampant]

3 minutes ago, Magicman said:

I think we did ok selling Bogle Lowe for millions and bringing forward Bird, Cashin, Thomo, Ebosole too plus adding Williams, Plange and Ebowei from other clubs academies. 

Agreed. Such a shame the Morris fallout has had such an impact and at a time too when Festy, Plange and Ebiowei could have played many games and furthered their career had we been able to keep them (or been more attractive to them instead of being a mess).

[RoyMac5]

 

[PistoldPete]

Why is this only announced now when he resigned at the end of the season? Serving notice? 

[therealhantsram]

25 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Why is this only announced now when he resigned at the end of the season? Serving notice? 

Likely so as not to bring out the doom peddlers.

I expect there will be media interviews with the new coach later this week.

[therams69]

37 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Why is this only announced now when he resigned at the end of the season? Serving notice? 

Supporter charter minutes are out in a couple of hours (this evening) and there was a question raised about Pat so suspect club just wanted to put something official out surrounding his departure, personally thought they had already!

[Carl Sagan]

It was revealed on June 24th and we had a thread about it (unless it's the Mandela Effect ;) ) but maybe something happened that led to it being deleted. 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, sage said:

Wasn't this announced a week ago?

It was revealed by @ExiledinDerby about 2 weeks ago and taken as fact due to them being #ITK regarding the academy.

1 hour ago, Magicman said:

I think we did ok selling Bogle Lowe for millions and bringing forward Bird, Cashin, Thomo, Ebosole too plus adding Williams, Plange and Ebowei from other clubs academies. 

How much of that was due to Lyons and U21/23 football?

A common theme for a long time has been a lack of U21/23 football before being promoted to the first team. Here are the number of U21/23 games played before their 10th first team game:

Sibley - 32
Tommo - 31
Lowe - 24
Bird - 24
Cashin - 19
Williams - 16 (only 9 first team apps)
Ebosele - 16
Plange - 15
Whittaker - 15
Knight - 14
Stretton - 13
Buchanan - 12
Bogle - 8
Ebiowei - 5

In a healthy club, your star players will only have 1 season at U21 level before moving up to the first team or being sent out on loan. If not the very best, you'd expect 2 full seasons. If fast tracked at a much younger age, this would still apply. This also applies whether we're talking about top PL clubs and low Championship clubs. A few examples:
Mount played 25 games and Tomori 33 for Chelsea U23s before their loan journeys began
Chilwell played 29 for Leicester before breaking into the first team
Campbell 38 games for Stoke before his half season at Shrewsbury
Spence 29 games for Fulham and Boro before breaking into Boro's first team.

As I said before, there's a lack of game time at U21 level prior to first team exposure. For the likes of Plange, Ebiowei and Williams, their introduction to the first team was due to off field activities. Bird and Lowe stayed in the U21 for as long as they did only due to the sheer number of first team players ahead of them blocking their paths. However, for the rest I put it down to being 'held back' in the U18s for longer than necessary, and partially due to a lack of quality in coaching and match management within the U21 setup.

Being held back:
A large part of the problem was a lot of 20+ players being used on U21 matchdays. For example, in the 19/20 season (18 league games), the equivalent to 95 games were played by players 20 or older, with 19.5 games of those played by overage players (over 23). That's almost half of the total game time at that level gone to players regaining fitness, or with a slim chance of breaking through to our first team. It's game time which could have gone to more promising youngsters such as: McDonald (410 minutes), Ebosele (309 minutes), Archie Brown (286 minutes), Tommo (246 minutes),  Wilson (56 minutes), Cashin (1 minute), Stretton (0 minutes).

In 18/19, there were the equivalent to 125.1 games played by those 20+ in a 22 game season. Buchanan (270 minutes), JBrown (262 minutes), Wilson (239 minutes), Knight (228 minutes), Whittaker (173 minutes), McDonald (90 minutes), Stretton 2 minutes)

Whilst not as bad in 20/21, there were still the equivalent to 87.6 games give to those 20+ (24 games in the season), with some promising youngster still not playing as much as they should have. Williams (728 minutes), Ebosele (646 minutes), Cashin (540 minutes), Cybulski (5 minutes).

U21/23 coaching and management:
To keep it simple, I've felt that players haven't improved from playing U21/23 football. They improve a lot in the U18s, stagnate in the U21s, then improve a lot in the first team. I feel the reason for this is a mixture of the quality of coaching and the ability when managing the team in games.

 

I can see the changes within the club addressing both problem areas.

[Will Hughes Hair]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It was revealed by @ExiledinDerby about 2 weeks ago and taken as fact due to them being #ITK regarding the academy.

How much of that was due to Lyons and U21/23 football?

A common theme for a long time has been a lack of U21/23 football before being promoted to the first team. Here are the number of U21/23 games played before their 10th first team game:

Sibley - 32
Tommo - 31
Lowe - 24
Bird - 24
Cashin - 19
Williams - 16 (only 9 first team apps)
Ebosele - 16
Plange - 15
Whittaker - 15
Knight - 14
Stretton - 13
Buchanan - 12
Bogle - 8
Ebiowei - 5

In a healthy club, your star players will only have 1 season at U21 level before moving up to the first team or being sent out on loan. If not the very best, you'd expect 2 full seasons. If fast tracked at a much younger age, this would still apply. This also applies whether we're talking about top PL clubs and low Championship clubs. A few examples:
Mount played 25 games and Tomori 33 for Chelsea U23s before their loan journeys began
Chilwell played 29 for Leicester before breaking into the first team
Campbell 38 games for Stoke before his half season at Shrewsbury
Spence 29 games for Fulham and Boro before breaking into Boro's first team.

As I said before, there's a lack of game time at U21 level prior to first team exposure. For the likes of Plange, Ebiowei and Williams, their introduction to the first team was due to off field activities. Bird and Lowe stayed in the U21 for as long as they did only due to the sheer number of first team players ahead of them blocking their paths. However, for the rest I put it down to being 'held back' in the U18s for longer than necessary, and partially due to a lack of quality in coaching and match management within the U21 setup.

Being held back:
A large part of the problem was a lot of 20+ players being used on U21 matchdays. For example, in the 19/20 season (18 league games), the equivalent to 95 games were played by players 20 or older, with 19.5 games of those played by overage players (over 23). That's almost half of the total game time at that level gone to players regaining fitness, or with a slim chance of breaking through to our first team. It's game time which could have gone to more promising youngsters such as: McDonald (410 minutes), Ebosele (309 minutes), Archie Brown (286 minutes), Tommo (246 minutes),  Wilson (56 minutes), Cashin (1 minute), Stretton (0 minutes).

In 18/19, there were the equivalent to 125.1 games played by those 20+ in a 22 game season. Buchanan (270 minutes), JBrown (262 minutes), Wilson (239 minutes), Knight (228 minutes), Whittaker (173 minutes), McDonald (90 minutes), Stretton 2 minutes)

Whilst not as bad in 20/21, there were still the equivalent to 87.6 games give to those 20+ (24 games in the season), with some promising youngster still not playing as much as they should have. Williams (728 minutes), Ebosele (646 minutes), Cashin (540 minutes), Cybulski (5 minutes).

U21/23 coaching and management:
To keep it simple, I've felt that players haven't improved from playing U21/23 football. They improve a lot in the U18s, stagnate in the U21s, then improve a lot in the first team. I feel the reason for this is a mixture of the quality of coaching and the ability when managing the team in games.

 

I can see the changes within the club addressing both problem areas.

Didn’t understand any of that but I definitely agree with you 👍

[Van der MoodHoover]

6 hours ago, therealhantsram said:

Likely so as not to bring out the doom peddlers.

I expect there will be media interviews with the new coach later this week.

That's my next Forum username, right there.....🤣

[Bald Eagle's Barmy Army]

The current owners have clearly seen something within the academy to know it needed to go in a different direction. 
 

With our facilities we could and should be producing more top end players. 
 

There’s got to be reasons why those with potential like Kaide Gordon and Rory Delap are quick to move on. And the reason isn’t just the clubs coming in for them. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Bald Eagle's Barmy Army said:

With our facilities we could and should be producing more top end players. 

Facilities comparison we are no better than Leicester, Villa, Manchester Clubs, Liverpool and Everton all of whom are within the 90 minutes travel time for a kid living in Derby. 
 

Coaches make players and again we are competing with all the above and Wolves, WBA, F**est among others within the 90 minute travel window. 
 

It’s not been a bad return when you scrutinise it a bit closer. 
 

There are other reasons Delap and Gordon left but ultimately it comes down to prestige and wages… lads don’t turn down the contracts they were offered at that age. Not one of us who comment on here would either unfortunately.