Accrington Stanley (H) Mon 2nd Jan, 3pm KO

[Ram@Lincoln]

21 minutes ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

The stadium valuation was done using the industry standard by a reputable company nothing lucky about it . 

Likewise the EFL's "expert" stadium valuer making out Pride Park is the same standard and value as Morecambe's ground which only has one seated stand with the terrace down the side of the pitch only 3 rows deep. The whole thing was an utter joke.

[Ghost of Clough]

17 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I should have said ‘somewhere in between’ not ‘somewhere in the middle’

You’re better informed than I am when it comes to comparing cases and there’s a mountain of detail in each one. But we’re paying for rule breaches as well as admin.
 

We asked for it, MM was aggressive and underhand in his dealings w EFl, a rabid hippo in the undergrowth. The 100k fine was light, we were lucky on stadium valuation and our methodology for arriving at stadium rental (unchallenged by EFL) seemed to make no sense.  Despite the deductions, if we’d had a decent manager last season we’d have had a decent chance of survival. The player sales have been hard to take but with creditors getting 25% it’s hard to complain.  Collecting that much cash for hmg and spending it on players is alone enough to enrage other fans. Have other clubs done that over such a long period and got off more lightly? 
 

eFl played a very straight bat once Q were appointed - in fact they were scared $hitless we would go under and bent over backwards to avoid it. Before that the influence Gibson peddled was a disgrace

 Dont know how harsh the current business plan is but when you look at our squad It doesn’t look too bad. I’m enjoying this season and don’t feel hard done by

We were in embargo during the following periods due to being suspected of failing P&S:
04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early (March?) 2020-22/09/2021
24 months of embargoes simply because no one could agree to whether we were using an acceptable policy or not. Not only that, but the EFL's CFO was happy with the accounts, then later, following a verbal discussion to go over the policy, stated he was content with it and pointed out it was the club's risk with loading values towards the end of contracts. The knock on effect of that was making it harder for MM to sell the club to someone else.

Our HMRC bill was built up over a maximum of 2 years. It was allowed to go on for so long due to Covid laws which prevented HMRC chasing it.
On debt in general, there are at least 6 Championship clubs who over over £100m to various parties.

Wigan were in administration and suffered relegation due to the points deduction. The transfer window after exiting administration, they spent £700k on one player. Roughly equivalent to 10% of their L1 revenue. Did anyone get enraged about that?

[PistoldPete]

31 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I should have said ‘somewhere in between’ not ‘somewhere in the middle’

You’re better informed than I am when it comes to comparing cases and there’s a mountain of detail in each one. But we’re paying for rule breaches as well as admin.
 

We asked for it, MM was aggressive and underhand in his dealings w EFl, a rabid hippo in the undergrowth. The 100k fine was light, we were lucky on stadium valuation and our methodology for arriving at stadium rental (unchallenged by EFL) seemed to make no sense.  Despite the deductions, if we’d had a decent manager last season we’d have had a decent chance of survival. The player sales have been hard to take but with creditors getting 25% it’s hard to complain.  Collecting that much cash for hmg and spending it on players is alone enough to enrage other fans. Have other clubs done that over such a long period and got off more lightly? 
 

eFl played a very straight bat once Q were appointed - in fact they were scared $hitless we would go under and bent over backwards to avoid it. Before that the influence Gibson peddled was a disgrace

 Dont know how harsh the current business plan is but when you look at our squad It doesn’t look too bad. I’m enjoying this season and don’t feel hard done by

Wait til Ipswich , Barnsley and co strengthen in January and we are not allowed to.  We have had a 21 points deduction and got relegated (just) as a result. Hell's teeth how much punishment do we need? As for EFL playing a straight bat , that made me fall off my chair. 

[Sparkle]

20 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

You’re right, but therein lies the problem. We don’t know anything. I would hazard a guess that even David Clowes doesn’t know what the EFL will sanction in the summer - they might be more lenient/open to negotiation  if we get promoted for example. Or less.  Who knows? 
Perhaps the EFL don’t even know themselves yet.

I don’t think we should underestimate their desire to make an example of us to frighten the rest however well the Clowes ‘let’s get the EFL onside’ plan is going.  They’ve got a number of clubs relying totally on the largesse of their owners post Covid and they’ll be terrified that clubs won’t find saviours and/or more will go into administration. 

Meanwhile all and sundry in the championship are being allowed to write off huge losses due to anything they can think off and not being charged or deducted any points 

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

Wait til Ipswich , Barnsley and co strengthen in January and we are not allowed to.  We have had a 21 points deduction and got relegated (just) as a result. Hell's teeth how much punishment do we need? As for EFL playing a straight bat , that made me fall off my chair. 

I had assumed you’d sit on the floor before reading one of my posts about the EFl 

The rules required the points deductions in the circumstances. And the rules require us to be under a business plan to ensure  we do not benefit from administration. You seem to be saying the rules should not apply 

 

[PistoldPete]

14 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I had assumed you’d sit on the floor before reading one of my posts about the EFl 

The rules required the points deductions in the circumstances. And the rules require us to be under a business plan to ensure  we do not benefit from administration. You seem to be saying the rules should not apply 

 

So how did the same rules not apply to Wigan? Who incidentally didn't think the 12 points deduction should apply to them either they appealed in spite of having less grounds for appeal than we did. How can we benefit from administration if we are relegated to League One? etc. etc. 

  

[kevinhectoring]

4 hours ago, Reggie Greenwood said:

The stadium valuation was done using the industry standard by a reputable company nothing lucky about it . 

The famous depreciated replacement cost method? Hmmm

The stadium is pretty much a single purpose property which forms an integral part of the business of Derby County football club, a business which happens to have been loss making for many years. 
 

The annual rental was 1.1m£ under the sale and leaseback.
 

How does all that work with the valuation?  
 

The discussion was whether fans from other clubs should think we have got off lightly. We pumped up profits on the basis of an 81.1m valuation, then the asset changed hands for 23m, are you surprised Mr Ploppy is still apoplectic ? 

[Reggie Greenwood]

2 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The famous depreciated replacement cost method? Hmmm

The stadium is pretty much a single purpose property which forms an integral part of the business of Derby County football club, a business which happens to have been loss making for many years. 
 

The annual rental was 1.1m£ under the sale and leaseback.
 

How does all that work with the valuation?  
 

The discussion was whether fans from other clubs should think we have got off lightly. We pumped up profits on the basis of an 81.1m valuation, then the asset changed hands for 23m, are you surprised Mr Ploppy is still apoplectic ? 

You need to question the industry not me. They put a value per seat for various standards of stadium. It’s nothing to do with depreciation it’s the value of a usable asset. Pride Park was valued at that market rate 

[kevinhectoring]

1 minute ago, PistoldPete said:

So how did the same rules not apply to Wigan? Who incidentally didn't think the 12 points deduction should apply to them either they appealed in spite of having less grounds for appeal than we did. How can we benefit from administration if we are relegated to League One? etc. etc. 

  

I’ve forgotten the detail on Wigan. But if you ask a Wigan fan that question I suspect you’ll get a litany of how they were put through the wringer and we weren’t. That’s my point 

[Mucker1884]

21 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

... How can we benefit from administration if we are relegated to League One? etc. etc. 

  

By foregoing our moral obligation to pay 75% of monies owed to non-football creditors, isn't it?  ?‍♂️

[Reggie Greenwood]

3 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

By foregoing our moral obligation to pay 75% of monies owed to non-football creditors, isn't it?  ?‍♂️

Unlike plucky Leicester who shafted all their creditors , went up and the whole football world is up their a#rse ?

[ram59]

26 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

The famous depreciated replacement cost method? Hmmm

The stadium is pretty much a single purpose property which forms an integral part of the business of Derby County football club, a business which happens to have been loss making for many years. 
 

The annual rental was 1.1m£ under the sale and leaseback.
 

How does all that work with the valuation?  
 

The discussion was whether fans from other clubs should think we have got off lightly. We pumped up profits on the basis of an 81.1m valuation, then the asset changed hands for 23m, are you surprised Mr Ploppy is still apoplectic ? 

West Ham and Brighton pay around £2m per year on their stadiums, I wonder what the book value is on those 2 grounds? 

Assets from businesses in distress generally go for a fraction of their true value. Bargains are there to be had when you have only one bidder. How much would it cost to replace Pride Park?

Derby gambled with the interpretation of the rules, to gain promotion and have been punished with relegation and the destruction of their academy and a highly restrictive business plan going forward.

I accept that a business plan is needed, but I fail to understand the logic where our expenditure can only be made up with players' wages and not for that figure to include small transfer fees. After all, which would be a better business plan, spending £x on an old free agent at the end of his career with no value or spending £x on a combination of transfer fee and wages on a good young lg2 player with potential to increase his value to the club? Under this business plan it is extremely difficult to add any value to any players that we acquire. At this level, many clubs only stay in business by buying in cheap and selling on for a profit. Even if we identify a good young player under 23 at the end of his contract, we won't be able to sign him.

[Comrade 86]

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, ram59 said:

West Ham and Brighton pay around £2m per year on their stadiums, I wonder what the book value is on those 2 grounds? 

Assets from businesses in distress generally go for a fraction of their true value. Bargains are there to be had when you have only one bidder. How much would it cost to replace Pride Park?

Derby gambled with the interpretation of the rules, to gain promotion and have been punished with relegation and the destruction of their academy and a highly restrictive business plan going forward.

I accept that a business plan is needed, but I fail to understand the logic where our expenditure can only be made up with players' wages and not for that figure to include small transfer fees. After all, which would be a better business plan, spending £x on an old free agent at the end of his career with no value or spending £x on a combination of transfer fee and wages on a good young lg2 player with potential to increase his value to the club? Under this business plan it is extremely difficult to add any value to any players that we acquire. At this level, many clubs only stay in business by buying in cheap and selling on for a profit. Even if we identify a good young player under 23 at the end of his contract, we won't be able to sign him.

Just another way of continuing the punishment. Can't be seen to benefit can we. It can be seen how good a squad we could put together with even a little leeway in transfer fees. 

[kevinhectoring]

3 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Instead of posting not very funny gifs and sarky emojis why don’t you actually add to the debate. You might surprise and say something interesting.  

[PistoldPete]

19 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Instead of posting not very funny gifs and sarky emojis why don’t you actually add to the debate. You might surprise and say something interesting.  

Anyway Rams v Accrington Stanley. We won 4-0. Should have been more . Do we agree on that?

 

[PistoldPete]

3 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

By foregoing our moral obligation to pay 75% of monies owed to non-football creditors, isn't it?  ?‍♂️

I would rather we (or rather Mel, but either way) were £20 million worse off but still be in Championship tbh.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by PistoldPete

[kevinhectoring]

38 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Anyway Rams v Accrington Stanley. We won 4-0. Should have been more . Do we agree on that?

 

We do Pete. At the beginning and at the end of the day, we are on the same side ? 

[DavesaRam]

23 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

We're actually at 5 years of embargoes. The 6th consecutive season we've been under one. Admittedly, under varying degrees of restrictions.

Embargoes: 04/05/18-03/07/18, 06/03/19-11/07/19, early 2020-present

That's roughly 40 out of the last 56 months. It will finish at 7 consecutive seasons and 57 out of 73 months.

That guy Eubass Todd springs to mind!

[ram59]

5 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Just another way of continuing the punishment. Can't be seen to benefit can we. It can be seen how good a squad we could put together with even a little leeway in transfer fees. 

The EFL must be gutted how we have managed to make so many good free agent signings. Who would have thought a lg1 team under our restrictions, would be able to sign the likes of McGoldrich, Hourihane and Chester? Then who would have expected NML and Wildsmith, struggling to get into another lg1 team, to be amongst our leading players. Even, the remaining free agent signings, whilst not being exceptional, have all made valuable contributions to the team.