Paul Warne appointed as Head Coach

[Jimbo Ram]

37 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

The difference is, Rosenior was the interim manager. So of course people were going to be quicker to make up their minds. I remember when Wassall was interim manager and we lost at home to MK Dons in his first game and that was that for some. 

Warne is the permanent manager and he has been given a four year contract, so he should be given more time and more support to allow him to show why Clowes backed him and with such commitment.

If you really don’t think he’s under pressure, have a read of the thread from last week’s EFL Trophy game. The support for Warne is already waning.

 

I think Warne is under pressure partly because his appointment was made at a time when, under the circumstances, we were doing quite well.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jimbo Ram
Typo

[Tyler Durden]

4 hours ago, nottingram said:

If I had to guess I think it’s pretty unlikely LR was ever going to be made manager permanently, and I struggle to see how Warne was less available in the summer than when we actually hired him, in fact I would imagine his stock increased

Rosenior didn’t do any better or worse than expected really, so based on that I think a decision had kind of been pre made. Not actioning that in the summer has meant we have a squad of players on two year deals, some of which I have no doubt Warne probably wouldn’t have wanted if he was building from scratch.

I don’t see how we were in so much of a rush in the summer that we couldn’t have taken a week or so just to hire the manager we actually wanted, rather than give someone we were not sold on at all pre season and 10 games. 

Based on the fact we were 7th and playing largely ok what would Rosenior had to have actually done to get the job full time? Top 2? 

The clue was in his job title. 

Interim - temporary, stop gap, short term, caretaker, acting.

So yeah was pretty clear that he was only any or all of the above. 

[May Contain Nuts]

1 hour ago, Tyler Durden said:

The clue was in his job title. 

Interim - temporary, stop gap, short term, caretaker, acting.

So yeah was pretty clear that he was only any or all of the above. 

There's a difference between interim / caretaker etc when there's no prospect of them being given the job or no desire on their part to take it, if the message coming out of the club is that they're only in charge whilst a permanent successor is being sought out, and the situation presented here though.

The situation with Rosenior was different because he clearly desired to be given the job full time, whether you call it Interim, temporary, stop gap, short term, caretaker, acting or anything else.

In truth we shouldn't ever have given Rosenior the interim role in the first place if what he was bringing to the table didn't match Clowes' long term vision and was so at odds with the type of manager / style he clearly wanted to implement. 

Ultimately it was more like a doomed relationship where one person is trying their best to show the other than its worth continuing with, but it's for naught as the other person already has their eye on someone else.

And rather than the person who wants out / wants to move on doing the right thing and ending it there and then they string the other along a bit, maybe unintentionally.

I'm not really blaming Clowes for that though tbh, because I understand that we needed someone in the role to help start the rebuilding process and what better than someone who knows the club and already has a few things lined up?

Basically what he's ended up doing is using Rosenior while he waited for someone else to make it clear they'd leave their current relationship for us!

...but I suppose that's OK, just as long as he always knew that he wasn't really in consideration for the full time position, and wasn't allowed to harbour any hopes of getting it?

He was only interim manager, after all.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[May Contain Nuts]

Hmm, now I've typed that and thought about it a bit..

...this is actually all Liam Rosenior's fault! Like, all of it. Everything

Rooney was a miracle worker having to put up with this chump as his assistant, dragging him down and causing all the problems with our play.

Warne's now going to have a massive job fixing all of the problems Liam has left him with, the useless little s***!

Crikey. A pat on the back for me. I knew I'd get there eventually!

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kokosnuss

[Rich84]

I think too many are looking at this as if Clowes has changed direction in what he wants, but has he?

He made it clear when he SAVED the club that he was going to take time to look at every aspect of the club, how it was run and how he could integrate his business philosophy/ethics into the club he's supported all his life, hence appointing Rosenior as INTERIM manager and allowing him to recruit players.

IMO this was a pragmatic business decision, we all agree we were behind everyone else with our shortened preseason and completely new squad, but we know that WR32, Rosenior and what recruitment set up we had were making plans in preparation of the club being SAVED, if he had instigated a clean sweep, touted for a new manager, spoke to several candidates, proor to appointing a new manager, we could well have not met the minimum requirements to even start the season, or should he have just selected the 1st candidate without due diligence? The reality is we would have been even further behind at the very best. 

Remember Clowes never wanted to be the owner, so he didn't have a plan, a prepared agenda on how he wanted to progress the club, he, like the vast majority on this forum have sat and endured the decline of our club under the previous ownership, and rest assured, he will want us to get back to a level of success, but most importantly,  stability and sustainability. 

I personally don't understand the comments that the players brought in can't play Warnes higher tempo football with a back 3 compared to possession at all costs under Rosenior, let's break it down:

We don't have 'ball playing' center halves, Davies, Stearman, Chester haven't played all their careers in possession based teams, and generally don't look comfortable with the ball at feet, Keogh, Tomori, fair enough, but not these old boys, Cashin is more adept but inexperienced.

Our lack of specialist full backs has been a sore point since Byrne and Buchanan slithered off to pastures new, so Rosenior and now Warne are making do with what they have available, the uproar in here about Knight at RB has quickly been forgotten.... both NML and Barkhauzen have stated they have played wing back previously, they don't enjoy it but at least it isn't totally unfamiliar. 

The vast majority have stated the midfield hasn't looked balanced irrespective of the manager,  yet Bird has had his better games this season under Warne, as has Sibley and oh, Knight is playing in midfield also, which most were crying out for.

Up front, how many goals did Collins score under Rosenior? For that matter, how many were scored by a striker period?

Warne requires his players to be high tempo, high energy and pacey, excluding the aged center halves I'd argue only Hourihane doesn't meet this criteria, and IMO he was poor for the vast majority of the possession based football we were playing prior to Warne, so no change there.

So, from the recruitment in the summer, only Hourihane and possibly Chester don't meet the requirement I believe Warne would be looking for,  Davies, Fozzie and Stearman were effectively already here.

I am certain Warne knew the qualities of the players on the books before he was asked to take our club forwards and he and Clowes both are looking for long term success, not get promoted at all costs this season approach, and, arguably not getting promoted until the business plan restrictions have expired is a better option anyway, otherwise we could go up, not compete against the bigger challenge in the championship and get relegated again as a result, hence a 4 yr deal to allow gradual progression. 

Just chill out a bit and reflect on the journey we've had in the last couple of years, then get behind the management and players irrespective of our own ideologies of how the game should be played, after all we are all Derby aren't we?

[Rich84]

Just one more point, I would have been happy for Rosenior to carry on longer, and I predicted an upper mid table finish this season in the poll before a ball was kicked - as I still do.

[FlyBritishMidland]

7 hours ago, Rich84 said:

I think too many are looking at this as if Clowes has changed direction in what he wants, but has he?

He made it clear when he SAVED the club that he was going to take time to look at every aspect of the club, how it was run and how he could integrate his business philosophy/ethics into the club he's supported all his life, hence appointing Rosenior as INTERIM manager and allowing him to recruit players.

IMO this was a pragmatic business decision, we all agree we were behind everyone else with our shortened preseason and completely new squad, but we know that WR32, Rosenior and what recruitment set up we had were making plans in preparation of the club being SAVED, if he had instigated a clean sweep, touted for a new manager, spoke to several candidates, proor to appointing a new manager, we could well have not met the minimum requirements to even start the season, or should he have just selected the 1st candidate without due diligence? The reality is we would have been even further behind at the very best. 

Remember Clowes never wanted to be the owner, so he didn't have a plan, a prepared agenda on how he wanted to progress the club, he, like the vast majority on this forum have sat and endured the decline of our club under the previous ownership, and rest assured, he will want us to get back to a level of success, but most importantly,  stability and sustainability. 

I personally don't understand the comments that the players brought in can't play Warnes higher tempo football with a back 3 compared to possession at all costs under Rosenior, let's break it down:

We don't have 'ball playing' center halves, Davies, Stearman, Chester haven't played all their careers in possession based teams, and generally don't look comfortable with the ball at feet, Keogh, Tomori, fair enough, but not these old boys, Cashin is more adept but inexperienced.

Our lack of specialist full backs has been a sore point since Byrne and Buchanan slithered off to pastures new, so Rosenior and now Warne are making do with what they have available, the uproar in here about Knight at RB has quickly been forgotten.... both NML and Barkhauzen have stated they have played wing back previously, they don't enjoy it but at least it isn't totally unfamiliar. 

The vast majority have stated the midfield hasn't looked balanced irrespective of the manager,  yet Bird has had his better games this season under Warne, as has Sibley and oh, Knight is playing in midfield also, which most were crying out for.

Up front, how many goals did Collins score under Rosenior? For that matter, how many were scored by a striker period?

Warne requires his players to be high tempo, high energy and pacey, excluding the aged center halves I'd argue only Hourihane doesn't meet this criteria, and IMO he was poor for the vast majority of the possession based football we were playing prior to Warne, so no change there.

So, from the recruitment in the summer, only Hourihane and possibly Chester don't meet the requirement I believe Warne would be looking for,  Davies, Fozzie and Stearman were effectively already here.

I am certain Warne knew the qualities of the players on the books before he was asked to take our club forwards and he and Clowes both are looking for long term success, not get promoted at all costs this season approach, and, arguably not getting promoted until the business plan restrictions have expired is a better option anyway, otherwise we could go up, not compete against the bigger challenge in the championship and get relegated again as a result, hence a 4 yr deal to allow gradual progression. 

Just chill out a bit and reflect on the journey we've had in the last couple of years, then get behind the management and players irrespective of our own ideologies of how the game should be played, after all we are all Derby aren't we?

100% this.  Superb post.

[FlyBritishMidland]

7 hours ago, Rich84 said:

Just one more point, I would have been happy for Rosenior to carry on longer, and I predicted an upper mid table finish this season in the poll before a ball was kicked - as I still do.

And this.

[Crewton]

The team's performances have been hit and miss under both managers. It shouldn't be a great surprise to anyone, because both managers wanted/want the team to play in systems that don't suit all players. If Rosenior had stayed, he'd have needed additional players to make the team function consistently well. Different type of players required, but Warne's needs are no different. Should he compromise his style until he gets the players he needs, or press ahead in the belief that the squad are talented and motivated enough to adapt, that's the question? Personally, I think the latter, but you can't mitigate for individual errors, poor passes, miscontrol, overhit crosses etc, as we had against Ipswich. 

 

[cosmic]

2 hours ago, Crewton said:

The team's performances have been hit and miss under both managers. It shouldn't be a great surprise to anyone, because both managers wanted/want the team to play in systems that don't suit all players. If Rosenior had stayed, he'd have needed additional players to make the team function consistently well. Different type of players required, but Warne's needs are no different. Should he compromise his style until he gets the players he needs, or press ahead in the belief that the squad are talented and motivated enough to adapt, that's the question? Personally, I think the latter, but you can't mitigate for individual errors, poor passes, miscontrol, overhit crosses etc, as we had against Ipswich. 

 

Sounds like he's insisting on sticking with his system, despite admitting he doesn't have the players to do so.

I personally think a good manager should be adaptable enough to organise a group of players and get the best out of them. But it seems we're sticking with playing wide forwards as wingbacks for the time being.

As an aside, I've noticed a few times Warne mention liking three in midfield to control the game. Why does he insist on bypassing them then, by lumping the ball forward? Don't think I've ever seen our middle three have control at any point in a game so far.

[RoyMac5]

27 minutes ago, cosmic said:

Sounds like he's insisting on sticking with his system, despite admitting he doesn't have the players to do so.

I personally think a good manager should be adaptable enough to organise a group of players and get the best out of them. But it seems we're sticking with playing wide forwards as wingbacks for the time being.

As an aside, I've noticed a few times Warne mention liking three in midfield to control the game. Why does he insist on bypassing them then, by lumping the ball forward? Don't think I've ever seen our middle three have control at any point in a game so far.

Seems like he'll not consider a back 4 where we'd only be one short and everyone else playing where they've experience - odd that he doesn't think that will get the best out of them. Hope it's not a blind spot tbh.

[Crewton]

48 minutes ago, cosmic said:

Sounds like he's insisting on sticking with his system, despite admitting he doesn't have the players to do so.

I personally think a good manager should be adaptable enough to organise a group of players and get the best out of them. But it seems we're sticking with playing wide forwards as wingbacks for the time being.

As an aside, I've noticed a few times Warne mention liking three in midfield to control the game. Why does he insist on bypassing them then, by lumping the ball forward? Don't think I've ever seen our middle three have control at any point in a game so far.

I'm not sure he does "insist" on bypassing them, anymore than Rosenior insisted on playing out from the back regardless of the risks. Surely no manager completely drives any capability for individual decision-making out of his players?

[cosmic]

1 minute ago, Crewton said:

I'm not sure he does "insist" on bypassing them, anymore than Rosenior insisted on playing out from the back regardless of the risks. Surely no manager completely drives any capability for individual decision-making out of his players?

You're right, individual decision-making plays a part. But the game plan is there, being followed to the letter, just as it was with Rosenior. We saw patterns in the games with Rosenior (defenders always pass along the back) as we're seeing with Warne (bypass the midfield).

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Seems like he'll not consider a back 4 where we'd only be one short and everyone else playing where they've experience - odd that he doesn't think that will get the best out of them. Hope it's not a blind spot tbh.

Could it be that he thinks that the current depth of his squad is insufficient to allow him the flexibility at the moment to switch to a back four? When he came in and told us what he was all about, he indicated that flexibility and and a realisation that there would be times when a change of system was necessary was part of his mind set. I had no axe to grind with Rosenior at all and I think that going into the Plymouth game, the position of the permanent manager looked good for him and it was only his to lose. But lose it he did in that game and the following one at Lincoln. What alarmed me about him was that after the Lincoln game what he said indicated an intransigency to change things and I think that probably sealed his fate. In what Clowes and Warne have said since, it seems that Clowes had done a lot of due diligence around Warne which impressed Warne as he made the decision to come here. It would be remarkable I think if he showed the same sort of intransigence that Rosenior did. So, like you, I hope it's not a blind spot but I am hopeful that given time, the new management team will be able to implement their own methods to the benefit of us all. The January window activity could be the defining moment of our season. As things stand, the play-offs remain a realistic hope. We'll have a better picture of that reality come the beginning of December.

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, Brailsford Ram said:

Could it be that he thinks that the current depth of his squad is insufficient to allow him the flexibility at the moment to switch to a back four? When he came in and told us what he was all about, he indicated that flexibility and and a realisation that there would be times when a change of system was necessary was part of his mind set. I had no axe to grind with Rosenior at all and I think that going into the Plymouth game, the position of the permanent manager looked good for him and it was only his to lose. But lose it he did in that game and the following one at Lincoln. What alarmed me about him was that after the Lincoln game what he said indicated an intransigency to change things and I think that probably sealed his fate. In what Clowes and Warne have said since, it seems that Clowes had done a lot of due diligence around Warne which impressed Warne as he made the decision to come here. It would be remarkable I think if he showed the same sort of intransigence that Rosenior did. So, like you, I hope it's not a blind spot but I am hopeful that given time, the new management team will be able to implement their own methods to the benefit of us all. The January window activity could be the defining moment of our season. As things stand, the play-offs remain a realistic hope. We'll have a better picture of that reality come the beginning of December.

Can't see that myself, but then I'm not the manager. I think that with his 'approach' and the teams we put out under Rosenior but with Oduroh (he's good enough) at RB we'd be more able to control midfield. 

But as I've said before I am no fan of 3/5 at the back.

[TomTom92]

I'm finding all this stewards enquiry into Warne a bit unfair. 

Have the club treated golden boy Rosenior unfair? Arguably so, but without being harsh we support Derby County not Liam Rosenior and nowadays its common practice for managers to be sounded out whilst the seat is still hot. Whether its morally correct or not is irrelevant, get with the times or get left behind.

If we'd not gone with LR at the start of the season by the time Warne was sounded out and sold the project we'd no doubt have been touching the first match of the season. We were desperate and needed signings in asap. We couldn't really afford to lose out on 5/6 signings over us doing the right thing by LR. 

Whether Warne will do any better this season than LR is still up for debate but the man with the money has made his decision and the more the LR loveboys call for Warne's head every time there's a bump in the road the more negativity this will bring. A 4 year deal has been signed so whether people like Warne or not he's here to stay. Unless of course our form completely nosedives. 

Let's see where we are in January and then again at the end of the season, I'd say by Jan 2024 we'd have enough information to either back PW or call for his head. 

Just find it weird how much a manager is being scrutinised so early into his reign after an average (not bad) start. 

[Ghost of Clough]

It's clear we don't have the squad to play Warne ball, and it'll take at least 2 windows to adequately address the issue.
January will focus on the defensive players, whilst in the summer attention will shift to the forwards.

Defence
Currently:     Mendez-Laing     Chester     Davies     Cashin     Barkhuizen
                          Oduroh             Rooney   Stearman  Roberts      Forsyth

January:     Mendez-Laing          New        Cashin        New               New
                      Barkhuizen          Chester    Davies      Roberts      Forsyth
                                                   Rooney    Stearman

Summer:     Mendez-Laing          New        Cashin       New           New
                     Barkhuizen          Rooney       New            New             New

 

Forwards
Currently:                                   Collins       Dobbin
                                                    Osula      McGoldrick

Summer:                                    Collins          New
                                                   Stretton       New

[Jimbo Ram]

16 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

The clue was in his job title. 

Interim - temporary, stop gap, short term, caretaker, acting.

So yeah was pretty clear that he was only any or all of the above. 

Think you are getting your little cottons socks all worked up about a job title. Interim could quite easily have become permanent ?

[Jimbo Ram]

15 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It's clear we don't have the squad to play Warne ball, and it'll take at least 2 windows to adequately address the issue.
January will focus on the defensive players, whilst in the summer attention will shift to the forwards.

Defence
Currently:     Mendez-Laing     Chester     Davies     Cashin     Barkhuizen
                          Oduroh             Rooney   Stearman  Roberts      Forsyth

January:     Mendez-Laing          New        Cashin        New               New
                      Barkhuizen          Chester    Davies      Roberts      Forsyth
                                                   Rooney    Stearman

Summer:     Mendez-Laing          New        Cashin       New           New
                     Barkhuizen          Rooney       New            New             New

 

Forwards
Currently:                                   Collins       Dobbin
                                                    Osula      McGoldrick

Summer:                                    Collins          New
                                                   Stretton       New

Is that your opinion ??

[Jimbo Ram]

25 minutes ago, TomTom92 said:

I'm finding all this stewards enquiry into Warne a bit unfair. 

Have the club treated golden boy Rosenior unfair? Arguably so, but without being harsh we support Derby County not Liam Rosenior and nowadays its common practice for managers to be sounded out whilst the seat is still hot. Whether its morally correct or not is irrelevant, get with the times or get left behind.

If we'd not gone with LR at the start of the season by the time Warne was sounded out and sold the project we'd no doubt have been touching the first match of the season. We were desperate and needed signings in asap. We couldn't really afford to lose out on 5/6 signings over us doing the right thing by LR. 

Whether Warne will do any better this season than LR is still up for debate but the man with the money has made his decision and the more the LR loveboys call for Warne's head every time there's a bump in the road the more negativity this will bring. A 4 year deal has been signed so whether people like Warne or not he's here to stay. Unless of course our form completely nosedives. 

Let's see where we are in January and then again at the end of the season, I'd say by Jan 2024 we'd have enough information to either back PW or call for his head. 

Just find it weird how much a manager is being scrutinised so early into his reign after an average (not bad) start. 

Who is calling for his head? He will get this season and next I would think ?