New style and tactics ?

[RamuelLJackson]

On 21/07/2022 at 21:33, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

The press is there to be broken. That I imagine is what we are trying to achieve. It needs good energetic midfielders who can move the ball forward between the lines. Our midfield against Stevenage was hopeless. Its not the system. 

One thing is for sure - if we're getting promoted out of this division we will need to work out how to beat a team that's pressing us.

[jono]

On 23/07/2022 at 03:17, RamuelLJackson said:

One thing is for sure - if we're getting promoted out of this division we will need to work out how to beat a team that's pressing us.

Yes, yes and yes. Nothing wrong with building from the back as a basic system but when you have successfully invited the press you have to then beat it by moving the ball forward quickly thus isolating / making redundant the pressing players. Move it fast, as we did a handful of times yesterday and you beat it. Dither as we also did yesterday and get punished. 

[DCFC1388]

I like how Rosenior said when we beat the press we need to go forward more and not go backwards. Happened too many times in the past where we beat it but go backwards anyway.

[Srg]

2 hours ago, DCFC1388 said:

I like how Rosenior said when we beat the press we need to go forward more and not go backwards. Happened too many times in the past where we beat it but go backwards anyway.

I sense because we will be the better team in more games than not this season, and therefore will have more possession, we may not all be huge Curtis Davies fans by the end of it.

No one can deny he’s a great defender, but comfortable with the ball at is his feet he is not. He really struggled under Lampard being asked to do similar things, but excelled last season when just being asked to defend (usually as we defended deeper most games). 

Hopefully he proves me wrong, but I do sense he could be an issue when we have a lot of the ball and are trying to play higher up the pitch. We really need to mask him in a way by getting it to the other three defenders (or defensive midfielder) quicker than we have been doing pre-season. 

[May Contain Nuts]

8 minutes ago, Srg said:

No one can deny he’s a great defender, but comfortable with the ball at is his feet he is not. He really struggled under Lampard being asked to do similar things, but excelled last season when just being asked to defend (usually as we defended deeper most games). 

I'm not convinced you actually watched many games last season if that's your opinion on how we played, at least not many of the home games.

[Shuff264]

Its more an evolution on last season rather than a revolution, watching yesterday it was a definitely 2-3-2-3 with the ball.

Full backs joining the midfield allowing two of the midfield three to push up, wingers staying high and wide to keep the pitch big and isolate full backs one v one.

[RodleyRam]

There are two things I think we need to address this season.

Make good decisions.

When to put your foot through it, when to play out from the back. When to move the ball more directly, when to be patient. We saw games last year when were really naive and big physical sides took us to school. I'm thinking Blackburn away, when the decision making and game management was poor. Teams are going to hustle us this year and give us no room to breathe, so we'll have to know when to play and when to mix it. Hopefully the experienced players will help with this.

Try to score.

Needs little explanation but our attacking play needs to be more confident and we can afford to get the ball in the box and shoot more. I've read some unnecessary comments about Collins already, I'm sure he'll score goals and give us more confidence to stick it in the box.

[kevinhectoring]

On 23/07/2022 at 03:17, RamuelLJackson said:

One thing is for sure - if we're getting promoted out of this division we will need to work out how to beat a team that's pressing us.

Our experience at the back should enable us to play out pretty safely once the players get to know each other  - so far it looks like the GK might be the least effective. As for our own press, we used a high press well last season but only for a game or two  (Plange, Knight and Tommo were the most effective I think). But most of last season involved a lot of wasted energy as players raced around in an uncoordinated, headless chicken half press which rarely troubled anyone.
Havent watched much div 1 football for a long time but I’d think few teams will manage a good, coordinated press against us. And that if we can organise one well - in midfield or high - it will cause chaos. But I think it’s hard to do especially if you’ve got a few senior citizens on the pitch 

[brady1993]

Tactically and style wise it's more of an evolution than a complete change. We still intend on building out from the back, getting on the ball and looking to have a good share of possession. Style wise it will more or less stay the same with some tactical shifts. 

Last season we primarily played a 4231 where both full backs pushed up high and wide, the 2 DMs mostly sat and acted as a double pivot and the attacking 3 came narrow infield. This was mostly to get the best out of Lawrence and perhaps Morrison in my opinion. 

This season the overarching plan seems to be no matter the starting formation or our defensive shape we want to shape up as 2-3-2-3 on the ball. With the lines being; centre backs, deep midfield, attacking midfield, forwards (with the two wide players here very split). 

So far we've had varying degrees of success which has mostly be down to personal available. (I'll focus mostly on the first halves of games).

Hertha Berlin was the game it inarguably was the most effective. More or less looking like 

       Chester Davies 

  Knight    Bird    Roberts

    Hourihane McGoldrick 

NML         Collins         Barkhuizen 

This illustrates the plan well. The plan is for that 3 of Knight, Bird and Roberts being the start of play really getting it out of the centre backs as quick as we can. They can either play forwards into the half spaces to McGoldrick or Hourihane or wide to the wingers hugging the touchline or straight into Collins. Bird is critical here because of his ability to keep possession under pressure and break the lines.

McGoldrick (so far) has been the second key. It's really important that those more advanced midfielders actively look to find space and get on the ball, which he is excellent at it in a way that's perhaps missing a little in the squad on the whole.

When it hasn't worked its been entirely down to the balance of the deep and attacking midfield not working. The best example being against Stevenage where we more looked something like (it's a little fuzzier)

        Davies Cashin 

Oduruh Hourihane Thompson

          Knight     Sibley 

NML           Collins       Forsyth

See the issue here is there is a lot more shifting from start position mostly to accommodate that left side as well as people not being suited to playing in certain places. Hourihane looked uncomfortable that deep, Thompson looked crowded on the left and couldn't use his knack for getting into space for little pop passes. Neither Knight or Sibley are particularly great at linking play. And an aging Fozzy has to move from left back to a very advanced position to provide width and get him out of the way of the build up play. 

The positives are I think if we have the 11 that played Berlin available it will be really effective but we really need to think about what we do without McGoldrick. And weirdly if Bird gets injured (and bielik isn't fit) I think it's going to be severely hampered as a system. 

So going into Oxford what do we do ?

Here is what we can probably guess

     Chester*  Davies 

    ?          Bird     Roberts 

   Hourihane/?   ?/Hourihane 

  NML      Collins   Barkhuizen

So the question is who comes into one of those "advanced" positions. Personally I'd be picking between Thompson and Knight I think. Both are energetic which I think is needed; Thompson is excellent at getting into space and is the better of the two at linking things together whereas Knight probably carries more goal threat, can carry the ball and has that knack of getting free kicks. Either way I'd do it with a base formation of a 433. Then Knight at RB if not in midfield or else Oduruh/Smith.

*Personally would swap for Cashin to have a left footer and I think Cashin might be better on the ball.

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

So going into Oxford what do we do ?

Here is what we can probably guess

     Chester*  Davies 

    ?          Bird     Roberts 

   Hourihane/?   ?/Hourihane 

  NML      Collins   Barkhuizen

So the question is who comes into one of those "advanced" positions. Personally I'd be picking between Thompson and Knight I think. Both are energetic which I think is needed; Thompson is excellent at getting into space and is the better of the two at linking things together whereas Knight probably carries more goal threat, can carry the ball and has that knack of getting free kicks. Either way I'd do it with a base formation of a 433. Then Knight at RB if not in midfield or else Oduruh/Smith.

*Personally would swap for Cashin to have a left footer and I think Cashin might be better on the ball.

Excellent thought-provoking post as usual. 

Thompson as an advanced midfielder is an interesting option as I've only regarded him as deep lying. He was very effective recycling possession from Davies/Stearman last season & guess in theory he could apply those skills further up the park, just concerned with his physicality in more congested areas of the park. Knight protects the ball better, wins plenty of free kics plus provides a goal threat if he can get closer to Collins, also looked good as a more advanced midfielder v Bradford.

Could you see Korey Smith playing the Max Bird role in the event of an injury? Believe he played as a pivot at Swansea & seems highly mobile, comfortable on the ball & technically adept from the little I've seen of him.

Agree re Cashin for Sat, Chester looked off the pace on Sat (admittedly against very strong opposition). Cash is quicker & better on the ball in any case..selection going forward may depend on how bruising the opposition CFs are.

[ramit]

Two slow central defenders side by side is not a recipe for success.

[Ghost of Clough]

9 hours ago, ramit said:

Two slow central defenders side by side is not a recipe for success.

Bonucci and Chielini had great success at Euro 2020.

Davies and Jagielka was working very well fit us last season.

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

10 hours ago, ramit said:

Two slow central defenders side by side is not a recipe for success.

And further forward 2 slow midfielders even worse. My memories of Huddleston and Johnson together still makes me wince.

[ramit]

10 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Bonucci and Chielini had great success at Euro 2020.

Davies and Jagielka was working very well fit us last season.

Uhm, last season was not a success.

[jono]

12 hours ago, ramit said:

Two slow central defenders side by side is not a recipe for success.

If our opponents have tricky fast mobile forwards that’s true but if they have big lumpy ogres then it’s a different game. 
 

That said Cashin would always be a starter for me. He really can tackle for a start. He’s only medium pace but he can head and his positioning is top class. Also comfortable on the ball. 

[ramit]

8 hours ago, jono said:

If our opponents have tricky fast mobile forwards that’s true but if they have big lumpy ogres then it’s a different game. 
 

That said Cashin would always be a starter for me. He really can tackle for a start. He’s only medium pace but he can head and his positioning is top class. Also comfortable on the ball. 

Ideally, the quicker defender is also tall and strong.  Those kind of players are often expensive, but a good international scouting system can find bargains.

[BatRam]

im just hoping we stop the woeful CB goal kick. And id love us to be more direct , possession football passing it round our own half for 80 minutes isnt very exciting 

[brady1993]

22 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Excellent thought-provoking post as usual. 

Thompson as an advanced midfielder is an interesting option as I've only regarded him as deep lying. He was very effective recycling possession from Davies/Stearman last season & guess in theory he could apply those skills further up the park, just concerned with his physicality in more congested areas of the park. Knight protects the ball better, wins plenty of free kics plus provides a goal threat if he can get closer to Collins, also looked good as a more advanced midfielder v Bradford.

Could you see Korey Smith playing the Max Bird role in the event of an injury? Believe he played as a pivot at Swansea & seems highly mobile, comfortable on the ball & technically adept from the little I've seen of him.

Agree re Cashin for Sat, Chester looked off the pace on Sat (admittedly against very strong opposition). Cash is quicker & better on the ball in any case..selection going forward may depend on how bruising the opposition CFs are.

With Thompson I actually suspect he'd be better a bit more advanced. I think he's more a linking 8 in a 3 man midfield than he's a deep lying player like Hughes was. His energy would come to the fore more and it better utilises his ability to find pockets, play little quick 1-2s and wall passes in order to progress possession quickly. His physicality would be less exposed because he has more freedom to move in those positions as opposed to as 1 of 2 dms and is likely to get crowded into a tight area especially after one of the centre backs fluffs a pass. 

With that said I can definitely see how Knight could be the right choice. I actually think it was notable that the midfield against Leicester looked pretty good in the time between Smith going off and Forsyth/Sibley coming on. And I think this is because Knight did a lot more to get on the ball, move into space, make little runs and try to turn or play the ball progressively than Smith or even Hourihane in a lot of respects. For example an understated part of our goal is that at the very start Knight drops short and wide into space to give another option for Oduruh which in turn drags a midfielder leaving space for Bird to move into. That just wasn't really happening before.

Smith I'm wary about making comments on right now. I've not seen him play a deal before joining. In terms of what I saw though he seemed to lack awareness of where space was going to be and those around him. He just didn't seem to picking up little pockets, his positioning wasn't great and he was often suspect of just playing the way he was facing when there were better options. Now that obviously could just be rustiness but I'd lean towards that he wouldn't be able to play Bird's role right now.

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I'd lean towards that he wouldn't be able to play Bird's role right now.

No chance IMO but there's no shame in that, it's why we had so many hopes attached to, and struggled so much to replace, George Thorne.

We had a system where the CBs could focus almost entirely on their forward play because the DM was so, so good at his job. Eustace wasn't the complete player of course but he was surrounded by a lot of quality.

We tried other players there for years but none could fully fulfill the responsibilities of the role until Bielik came along.

Bird is a fine, fine player but even he can't replicate the full range of abilities provided by past inhabitants so we can't really expect it from anyone else at this level.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Coconut's Beard

[Carl Sagan]

Across pre-season I see no significant change in tactics from last year. I had been hopeful, but it shouldn't be a surprise given Rosenior did the majority of last season's coaching. 

If we don't change we won't score goals and will likely finish lower mid-table. I was pleased Rooney left because, despite being such tremendous a leader of men in our hour of need, the style of play was both negative and poorly conceived, and had to change. I have never seen a team consistently create so few chances. And to be set up to play that way. Not to mention being instructed to continually put ourselves under pressure, to no benefit whatsoever.

At least we still have a club to support, but I'm pessimistic about the new campaign.