Academy thread 22/23

[Ghost of Clough]

45 minutes ago, IslandExile said:

I want to like Warne. He's a funny man, he wears a bobble hat but, but....

All this about 4 year contract to build up the ethos of the club and he can't be bothered to watch the kids play???!!!! Eeek. That doesn't sit well for me.

His team selections and tactics are another thing but I give him the benefit of the doubt over that because we don't know the physical state of the squad.

I was a Warne sceptic when he first arrived but I quietened down in the light of the good run - and to give the guy a chance - but I'm afraid my fears are resurfacing.

My fears too..

On 27/10/2022 at 09:41, Ghost of Clough said:

You aren't the first to claim this, but what are you basing it on? Poor results? The majority of the people who don't think Warne should be manager are basing their opinion on much more than results. Style of play, damage to the academy, reducing the chances of keeping our academy graduates, dwindling attendances, the destruction of the feel good factor around the club, etc...

[Ghost of Clough]

12 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

Conflicted on this tbh.

On the one hand it is of the utmost importance that we get ourselves established in the Championship, sharpish, on the other we can't just neglect the academy entirely.

...but realistically is there anyone we've been left (with following Morris setting fire to what he built) who could play a role in achieving that aim? Any players (or rather, enough players) who'll even be 'League One ready' in the next 2, 3 seasons? Does it make sense for the manager to be attending these games at the minute?

I also don't see that Warne, as a person and with his style of man-management, would simply exclude or be unwilling to work with a player just because they're from the academy setup. I'm not sure he would even have had much of an academy at Rotherham to work with? Perhaps it's all a bit new to him?

If Warne isn't having much if any say on how the academy teams play then, and don't really have anyone even close to making the step up, then it makes sense to focus on the first team.

Changing the whole academy set-up to suit Warne's current 'image' would take years (and quite frankly would be madness) so perhaps the idea is that he's gets free reign on first team affairs (learning / adapting as he goes), we carry on doing what we have been doing with the academy teams and the two 'ideals' meet in the middle further down the line.

Like with all things at the minute, we're banking on Warne & his team evolving with us and showing new sides to his managerial abilities. That's the gamble we've taken.

Are we including Rooney and Tommo, as they have been largely ignored this season?
Cybulski and Stretton would have been useful squad players, but someone made the decision to loan them out, and in Stretton's case, sold in January.
Aghatise has been the standout for me in the U21s (when fit) and his versatility means he could have been given minutes this season on the wing in the first team. He's physically ready for first team football too.
Hawkins and DRobinson could breakthrough in the next 2 or 3 years, but have a lot of competition in the CM position.
Moloney (LB/LWB) and Richards (RW/RWB) have started playing more for the U21s and have a shot at.
Evans and JThompson (both GK), Cox (CB), Davidson (W/CF), DBrown (CF) and Wheeldon (CF) are all players I see playing for the first team eventually.

[BondJovi]

7 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes why not - ring up Moan-in and be Derek from Alvaston! But you would think that with limited resources the manager might be interested in the U21s?

The season is grinding to a halt. I would agree entirely that with limited resources make use of the academy. 

I fear there is a bit of Rowett about Warne. How can we present a one club ethos if the under 21s effectively see a closed door to the first team. 

The only manager I believe we have had who actually wanted to fully use the academy since NC was Cocu, maybe too ambitious, maybe the wrong time and with that I guess we can include Rosenior. 

Perhaps year 1 under Warne is to sort the first team and he make take a wider look at the club next season...maybe...

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, BondJovi said:

The season is grinding to a halt. I would agree entirely that with limited resources make use of the academy. 

I fear there is a bit of Rowett about Warne. How can we present a one club ethos if the under 21s effectively see a closed door to the first team. 

The only manager I believe we have had who actually wanted to fully use the academy since NC was Cocu, maybe too ambitious, maybe the wrong time and with that I guess we can include Rosenior. 

Perhaps year 1 under Warne is to sort the first team and he make take a wider look at the club next season...maybe...

 

 

Debuts given to players by each manager:

Mac1 - KThomas, Hanson
Rowett - Guy, Bennett, Kellan Gordon, LThomas, Elsnik, Bird
Clement - Mitchell
Pearson - Lowe, Elsnik
Mac2 - Vernam
Rowett - Gordon, Bird, Guy, LThomas
Lampard - Bogle, Mitchell-Lawson
Cocu - Knight, Buchanan, Sibley, Whittaker, JBrown, Hector-Ingram
Rooney - Stretton, KMcDonald, Watson, Kaide Gordon, Williams, Aghatise, Tommo, Hutchinson, Cresswell, Ebosele, Cybulski, Plange, Cashin, Ebiowei, Richards, DRobinson
Rosenior - Oduroh, Rooney
Warne - Bardell

[IslandExile]

You've got Rowett twice there.

In fairness to Warne, there's less new ones he could select.

But that's where my defence ends. For him not to even show up at academy games is appalling, no matter how many gems are on the rise. He has to follow the academy. We're a club, not just a first team.

He goes to other league 1 and championship games and watches enough TV. Heck take the dog for a walk to an academy game.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Kokosnuss said:

 

...but realistically is there anyone we've been left (with following Morris setting fire to what he built) who could play a role in achieving that aim? Any players (or rather, enough players) who'll even be 'League One ready' in the next 2, 3 seasons? Does it make sense for the manager to be attending these games at the minute?

 

Robinson, C Richards. Bardell, Evans and Hawkins will all be L1 ready in the next 2 years. 
 

Robinson and Richards already been around and played. Evans was travelling as No. 3 and training with the first team at 17 in front of Foulkes and Roberts. Hawkins been on the bench already and Bardell has the potential. 

[JustOneBiblicalKazim]

Didn’t Rooney used to go and give team talks to the under 23’s sometimes or have I imagined that? As well as some of the senior plays in the squad (Kazim-Richards etc)? I know he was forced into playing a lot of them but I always loved how he engaged with the academy, I wasn’t a big fan of him and I think he’s been exposed as a manager without the staff he had here but it’s one big plus I’d give him.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, IslandExile said:

You've got Rowett twice there.

In fairness to Warne, there's less new ones he could select.

But that's where my defence ends. For him not to even show up at academy games is appalling, no matter how many gems are on the rise. He has to follow the academy. We're a club, not just a first team.

He goes to other league 1 and championship games and watches enough TV. Heck take the dog for a walk to an academy game.

The 2nd Rowett 😅

[angieram]

2 hours ago, IslandExile said:

You've got Rowett twice there.

In fairness to Warne, there's less new ones he could select.

But that's where my defence ends. For him not to even show up at academy games is appalling, no matter how many gems are on the rise. He has to follow the academy. We're a club, not just a first team.

He goes to other league 1 and championship games and watches enough TV. Heck take the dog for a walk to an academy game.

That's a fair walk from Rotherham to Loughborough!

[IslandExile]

18 minutes ago, angieram said:

That's a fair walk from Rotherham to Loughborough!

True but Loughborough lies between Rotherham and Norwich. He manages to go there for games.

[May Contain Nuts]

3 hours ago, IslandExile said:

You've got Rowett twice there.

In fairness to Warne, there's less new ones he could select.

But that's where my defence ends. For him not to even show up at academy games is appalling, no matter how many gems are on the rise. He has to follow the academy. We're a club, not just a first team.

He goes to other league 1 and championship games and watches enough TV. Heck take the dog for a walk to an academy game.

Problem is that we don't know what instructions he's got from the top / conversations he's had with Clowes, Wassall etc. We don't know who's had the final say on Cybulski / Stretton and I think Warne was quoted as saying he wasn't particularly happy about Thompson going out on loan?

If Warne is going against Clowes' vision for the club he won't be here long, so presumably his lack of attendance at Academy games is something that's been agreeed upon?

From GoC's answer earlier, honestly I haven't watched a single U23 / U21 game this season but never previously been impressed with Aghatise to the point I think he'd be worth considering for the first team, but maybe he's improved, or maybe he just stands out now because the overall quality has lowered.

i guess the focus is on players who can be more than a 'useful squad member' if the aim is to finish in the top 2 next season. All the players mentioned have their uses but are they going to make a telling impact at the top end of the table?

The players who've been loaned out / sold are playing, but not excelling, at League Two & National League level so it's debatable whether they'd actually make 'useful' squad numbers in terms of quality, or just in terms of bodies.

We also don't know who they've got their eyes on in the summer to join up with the academy.

I dunno, just trying to make sense of the plan because surely, surely, there must be one!?

Edited April 4, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

Problem is that we don't know what instructions he's got from the top / conversations he's had with Clowes, Wassall etc. We don't know who's had the final say on Cybulski / Stretton and I think Warne was quoted as saying he wasn't particularly happy about Thompson going out on loan?

From GoC's answer earlier, honestly I haven't watched a single U23 / U21 game this season but never been impressed with Aghatise to the point I think he'd be worth considering for the first team (last season) but maybe he's improved, or maybe he just stands out now because the overall quality has lowered?

i guess the focus is on players who can be more than a 'useful squad member' when the aim is to finish in the top 2 next season. All the players mentioned have their uses but are they going to make a telling impact at the top end of the table?

The players who've been loaned out / sold are playing, but not excelling, at League Two & National League level so it's debatable whether they'd actually make 'useful' squad numbers in terms of quality, or just in terms of bodies.

We also don't know who they've got their eyes on in the summer.

I dunno, just trying to make sense of the plan because surely, surely,  there must be one!?

When you already have a tiny squad, U21s have to be part of the first team picture. Even if that's to play the same amount of minutes as the likes of Osula and Springett.

We've only used 22 players in total in the league. 6 of those have played less than 500 minutes. That's absolutely ridiculous where the league average is 30.5 players.

By playing U21s in first team fixtures, not only do you allow senior players to rest, but you also put them in the shop window. They have the chance to prove they're good enough to be used in the first team more often, or they earn a move away. It would also help ease them in to first team football.

Tommo and Rooney should have been involved much more than they have done. Stretton and Cybulski should have been used rather than shipped out. Richards, Aghatise and others should have been given opportunities too.

Your comment on the quality in the U21s is also unfounded. Results have been heavily influenced by not having a CF all season (Stretton, Cybulski and Nunn all sent out on loan), and the only CBs spending most of the season out injured (Solomon and Bardell)

[May Contain Nuts]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

When you already have a tiny squad, U21s have to be part of the first team picture. Even if that's to play the same amount of minutes as the likes of Osula and Springett.

We've only used 22 players in total in the league. 6 of those have played less than 500 minutes. That's absolutely ridiculous where the league average is 30.5 players.

By playing U21s in first team fixtures, not only do you allow senior players to rest, but you also put them in the shop window. They have the chance to prove they're good enough to be used in the first team more often, or they earn a move away. It would also help ease them in to first team football.

Tommo and Rooney should have been involved much more than they have done. Stretton and Cybulski should have been used rather than shipped out. Richards, Aghatise and others should have been given opportunities too.

Your comment on the quality in the U21s is also unfounded. Results have been heavily influenced by not having a CF all season (Stretton, Cybulski and Nunn all sent out on loan), and the only CBs spending most of the season out injured (Solomon and Bardell)

Yes, I agree with all of that, never said otherwise.

As I said I'm just trying to figure out the logic / pose some questions rather than piling on so to speak. I wasn't meaning to say the quality IS lower I was asking whether that's the case.

Without being able to find the logic, the whole situation is just very bizarre and goes against what you'd expect us to be doing.

I think there needs to be an OS interview with Wassall about the current status and ongoing plans of the academy in relation to the path to the first team, because speculating on here only leads to me feeling more confused.

I'm trying to go think about it in good faith that we aren't being bloody stupid...  rather than what my instincts are saying.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[B4ev6is]

There is a big jump from under 21s to first team I think warn believes sending them out on loan to play mens football to help them when they get called up.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

4 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

There is a big jump from under 21s to first team I think warn believes sending them out on loan to play mens football to help them when they get called up.

In my time watching Derby I can only really think of Ramage and Sturridge going out on loan and playing regular on return.  If they're at the level to play they normally start straight on the bench.  It's never a good sign in particular, if you've played 10 games and then get sent out on loan lower down the leagues.  Playing non league football really won't offer any advancements over playing for a professional reserve side.  A League 2 loan at least allows them to put themselves in the window to stay professional.  They're being sold short.

[B4ev6is]

2 hours ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

In my time watching Derby I can only really think of Ramage and Sturridge going out on loan and playing regular on return.  If they're at the level to play they normally start straight on the bench.  It's never a good sign in particular, if you've played 10 games and then get sent out on loan lower down the leagues.  Playing non league football really won't offer any advancements over playing for a professional reserve side.  A League 2 loan at least allows them to put themselves in the window to stay professional.  They're being sold short.

Well everyone have start some were and as everyone has stated non leagues can be cometive level what warn wants his to have young players to hold there own competitive at the same time. Put them in to early and can do more harm than good.

[RoyMac5]

 

[Caerphilly Ram]

On 04/04/2023 at 16:09, Kokosnuss said:

Yes, I agree with all of that, never said otherwise.

As I said I'm just trying to figure out the logic / pose some questions rather than piling on so to speak. I wasn't meaning to say the quality IS lower I was asking whether that's the case.

Without being able to find the logic, the whole situation is just very bizarre and goes against what you'd expect us to be doing.

I think there needs to be an OS interview with Wassall about the current status and ongoing plans of the academy in relation to the path to the first team, because speculating on here only leads to me feeling more confused.

I'm trying to go think about it in good faith that we aren't being bloody stupid...  rather than what my instincts are saying.

Perhaps an important line of questioning for the next Supporters Group meeting @angieram? Some clarity on the future plans for the academy and the pathways to the first team? Apologies if that’s already been asked. 

[angieram]

1 hour ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Perhaps an important line of questioning for the next Supporters Group meeting @angieram? Some clarity on the future plans for the academy and the pathways to the first team? Apologies if that’s already been asked. 

It's unlikely there'll be another meeting this season now, but I'll bear it in mind if there is. 

[angieram]