The Ukraine War

[Archied]

23 minutes ago, Cisse said:

Actually it is kind of funny. We are blaming Putin, Johnson and others and still we are often ready to listen and accept only those posts and posters that feel the same way we do. 

They say power corrupts and I believe it. I wonder if I myself got enough power and would also use it the way I see fit how long it would take that I would found myself as the most hated man on this forum. 

For David's sake and mod's too if you want to be out of line do it with PM so the thread doesn't get closed and perhaps in the future we can have civilized discussions here with wider variety of threads.

Here,,,, that’s my job??‍♂️

[Alph]

One thing that's pretty annoying is the whole "what does Putin want, why is he doing this"

I think he must have said it a dozen or more times publicly in the last 8 days. 

Why do we have to pretend that he wants to conquer Europe or that we can't figure out what his demands are. 

I'm not saying give him everything he wants. But why is it such a mystery. He's literally said it

[BaaLocks]

5 minutes ago, Archied said:

Here,,,, that’s my job??‍♂️

@sage - time for a poll? :-)

[Rev]

8 minutes ago, Archied said:

Here,,,, that’s my job??‍♂️

You're not even close.  

You may have lots of disagreements, but you're not rude about anything, as far as I can tell, and you always state what has made you feel the way you do.

[GboroRam]

4 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

Indeed, it's just another layer to it I am afraid. Documentary the other year showed Indian families getting beaten up at Shaktar Donetsk just for being at the game.

Racism is years, nay decades, behind where it is here across most of Central and Eastern Europe and, according to what we saw last night, even when they get to Poland (Ukranian border police are operating a 'ten Ukranians for every 'obvious foreigner'' policy) they are getting chased in the streets by Polish far right thugs who are leaping at the chance of a bit of 'sport'. 

Humans are, in the main, pretty flippin' horrible.

I'm not going to say it doesn't happen, but the Polish people's response to the Ukraine refugee crisis has been overwhelmingly accepting. Obviously there will be racist elements in any country - if we had half a million immigrants come here do you think there might be some violence from the far right? - but the Polish people have been welcoming and supportive of the Ukrainians coming to the country. Food, clothing, medicines, medical support, accommodation - all is being given with best intentions. My wife was travelling this week and saw a young Ukrainian man on the plane, nervously looking at his phone. When the stewards realised he was Ukrainian, heading back to his home country to fight, the staff all found what they could to give him to help. This sounds like the reaction of millions of ordinary people across the country. 

[Tamworthram]

45 minutes ago, Alpha said:

One thing that's pretty annoying is the whole "what does Putin want, why is he doing this"

I think he must have said it a dozen or more times publicly in the last 8 days. 

Why do we have to pretend that he wants to conquer Europe or that we can't figure out what his demands are. 

I'm not saying give him everything he wants. But why is it such a mystery. He's literally said it

Like he literally said he wasn't going to invade Ukraine (I believe)?

[Rev]

28 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I'm not going to say it doesn't happen, but the Polish people's response to the Ukraine refugee crisis has been overwhelmingly accepting. Obviously there will be racist elements in any country - if we had half a million immigrants come here do you think there might be some violence from the far right? - but the Polish people have been welcoming and supportive of the Ukrainians coming to the country. Food, clothing, medicines, medical support, accommodation - all is being given with best intentions. My wife was travelling this week and saw a young Ukrainian man on the plane, nervously looking at his phone. When the stewards realised he was Ukrainian, heading back to his home country to fight, the staff all found what they could to give him to help. This sounds like the reaction of millions of ordinary people across the country. 

On Saturday I'm dropping off a car full of supplies to the local Ukrainian centre.

From there, a local Polish owned firm is picking up the gear and delivering it to those who've fled to Poland to shelter, all completely voluntarily. 

Most people, in most countries, and I include Russia in that, are fundamentally decent, not fundamentalists.

[GboroRam]

1 minute ago, Rev said:

On Saturday I'm dropping off a car full of supplies to the local Ukrainian centre.

From there, a local Polish owned firm is picking up the gear and delivering it to those who've fled to Poland to shelter, all completely voluntarily. 

Most people, in most countries, and I include Russia in that, are fundamentally decent, not fundamentalists.

Poland understands what being under attack from Russia means, and remembers the failure of the world to step in and support. 

[Alph]

56 minutes ago, Tamworthram said:

Like he literally said he wasn't going to invade Ukraine (I believe)?

True. 

But with his demands there's nothing more he can demand really. Demand 1 is unreasonable.

Demilitarise and de-Nazify.

Basically let him choose your government. It's complete surrender. 

[ketteringram]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

One thing that's pretty annoying is the whole "what does Putin want, why is he doing this"

I think he must have said it a dozen or more times publicly in the last 8 days. 

Why do we have to pretend that he wants to conquer Europe or that we can't figure out what his demands are. 

I'm not saying give him everything he wants. But why is it such a mystery. He's literally said it

He also said, repeatedly, nine or ten days ago, he had no intention of invading Ukraine.

[Rev]

24 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Poland understands what being under attack from Russia means, and remembers the failure of the world to step in and support. 

My mother in law, god rest her soul, was born in Persia, now Iran, after her family was driven from her home in Poland.

Her mother miscarried in Russia, while escaping the Nazi's, and to get her out of her grief a Russian doctor recommended getting pregnant asap, then told the family to keep marching as they weren't welcome there, hence she was born in Tehran.

From Persia, they ended up in a refugee camp in Kenya, then another one on the outskirts of Stoke-on-Trent! 

From there, the Mother in Law moved to Nottingham, qualified as a teacher then spent 42 years at the same school, only going back to Poland for a few days once retired.

None of which is relevant I know, but her daughter (my wife), is almost glad she's not here to see what's happening now.

 

 

[cstand]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I'm not going to say it doesn't happen, but the Polish people's response to the Ukraine refugee crisis has been overwhelmingly accepting. Obviously there will be racist elements in any country - if we had half a million immigrants come here do you think there might be some violence from the far right? - but the Polish people have been welcoming and supportive of the Ukrainians coming to the country. Food, clothing, medicines, medical support, accommodation - all is being given with best intentions. My wife was travelling this week and saw a young Ukrainian man on the plane, nervously looking at his phone. When the stewards realised he was Ukrainian, heading back to his home country to fight, the staff all found what they could to give him to help. This sounds like the reaction of millions of ordinary people across the country. 

As your are a mod I would expect you to abide by the rules more than anyone.

David has made it quite clear he does not want the same old tiresome left v right wing  politics debate in this thread yet you ignore this instruction by suggesting there maybe far right wing attacks in this country only because it suits your political narrative. 
 

Me and my far right wife have donated clothes, blankets, toiletries and toys going out on a lorry tomorrow to Poland for the Ukrainian people.

Edited March 3, 2022 by cstand

[Rev]

5 minutes ago, cstand said:

As your are a mod I would expect you to abide by the rules more than anyone.

David has made it quite clear he does not want the same old tiresome left v right wing  politics debate in this thread yet you ignore this instruction by suggesting they could be far right wing attacks in this country only because it suits your political narrative. 
 

Me and my far right wife have donated clothes, blankets, toiletries and toys going out on a lorry tomorrow to Poland for the Ukraine people.

I think you're being a bit harsh here.  

I don't see a suggestion they'd be far right attacks here at all from the post in question, just that when 500k people pour across a border then there will be people who protest, as there has been in Poland.

The fact that your wife and you have donated suggests you're just decent people, needing no label other than that attached.

 

[cstand]

21 minutes ago, Rev said:

I think you're being a bit harsh here.  

I don't see a suggestion they'd be far right attacks here at all from the post in question, just that when 500k people pour across a border then there will be people who protest, as there has been in Poland.

The fact that your wife and you have donated suggests you're just decent people, needing no label other than that attached.

Harsh I was very restrained.

21 minutes ago, Rev said:

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by cstand

[Alph]

1 hour ago, ketteringram said:

He also said, repeatedly, nine or ten days ago, he had no intention of invading Ukraine.

Yeah, as I said though I don't think there can be an ulterior motive since his conditions are so impossible for Ukraine

Not the Republic recognition etc but to demilitarise and remove government. What more could he really be hiding. 

Ukraine can't possibly agree to that. Zelensky would have to live in exile? 

Which would probably be Russian justice for Yanukovych. 

It's frustrating now to see both sides making threats. People are dying and will continue dying until talks become more productive. 

Truss should shut up forever. Macron seems to be doing more for peace than most of the European leaders. He does at least seem to have respect in Moscow now. 

Czech Republic are allowing civilians to go fight? I've just read that somewhere. Again, utterly irresponsible if true and it's stuff like that and comments from Truss that is more likely to escalate things. 

It feels like something will have to give soon. Preferably Russia but more than likely Kyiv

[BaaLocks]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

Poland understands what being under attack from Russia means, and remembers the failure of the world to step in and support. 

You think so, or you think they are just helping people in desperate need? I'd like to think if a refugee turned up on my doorstep the last thing I'd be concerned about is the historical optic.

[BaaLocks]

1 hour ago, Rev said:

My mother in law, god rest her soul, was born in Persia, now Iran, after her family was driven from her home in Poland.

Her mother miscarried in Russia, while escaping the Nazi's, and to get her out of her grief a Russian doctor recommended getting pregnant asap, then told the family to keep marching as they weren't welcome there, hence she was born in Tehran.

From Persia, they ended up in a refugee camp in Kenya, then another one on the outskirts of Stoke-on-Trent! 

From there, the Mother in Law moved to Nottingham, qualified as a teacher then spent 42 years at the same school, only going back to Poland for a few days once retired.

None of which is relevant I know, but her daughter (my wife), is almost glad she's not here to see what's happening now.

Wow Rev, what a story - you could make a movie about that (maybe not the Stoke on Trent bit ?). Truth is that so many of that generation lived these stories, probably some connection between that and the fact we then managed to live in relative peace for their lifetimes.

Edited March 3, 2022 by BaaLocks

[ramit]

"Fëdor Dostoevsky has become the unlikely source of a controversy at a Milan university over its decision to drop a course on the 19th-century Russian novelist.

The University of Milano-Bicocca informed the Italian writer Paolo Nori on Tuesday night that his course on the author of Crime and Punishment had been cancelled "to avoid any controversy, in a moment of high tension."

https://www.wantedinmilan.com/news/ukraine-dostoevsky-sparks-controversy-at-italian-university.html

Laughable, but they backtracked when the laughter grew too loud.

 

[BaaLocks]

9 minutes ago, ramit said:

"Fëdor Dostoevsky has become the unlikely source of a controversy at a Milan university over its decision to drop a course on the 19th-century Russian novelist.

It's a bit like the pile on over on Twitter where John Terry is thanking Roman Abramovich for what he did for Chelsea and getting royally roasted for it. I hope it's short term but if this was an African or Middle Eastern country we were talking about I'm not so sure many would be so quick to just throw the whole country under the bus and many might even question if some are even being a little racist in our reaction. Too little consideration for the difference between Russia and the Soviet Union, too quick to parallel what is happening to times gone by, too quick to believe this is the new Iron Curtain descending. As any Englishman will tell you, the leader is not the country and their actions are not always the will of the people.

Thankfully, many on here have not taken that line - indeed generally it has been the opposite and been very understanding - but social media is a vile space and the fear of cancel culture also seems to suggest that many, like the example you raise, are petrified of being turned on by the Twitterati.

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

4 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

That's the problem though, isn't it, it's all riddled with hypocrisy on every side. Take Syria, in that conflict he supported the ruling party and helped them fight back insurgent forces armed and supported by the US (among others) who many saw as supporting the deposing of the ruling party. So in that case it could be argued he did exactly what many are expecting NATO to do in Ukraine. Now, many will rightly say 'what about Hallabja?' and you are right - I'm just saying it's a mess when you start pulling it to bits. Take Kamala Harris yesterday, saying big countries invading small countries is wrong - she needs to tell her Foreign Secretary that message then because there has been no greater breaker of that rule than the US. It's just so hypocritical when you stand back.

Chechnya is Russian territory and, sorry, you need to recognize some of the barbaric actions carried out by the Chechen terrorists (funded in part by the US, funded in part by Al Qaeda, led by Osama Bin Laden at one time btw). Blowing up apartment blocks in Moscow, hostages in theatres, hijacking maternity wards in hospitals, schools (Beslan) and stripping the skin of children's backs while videoing it and sending it back to Moscow. If (for example) the IRA were carrying out those tactics I can be confident many, many, many would have called for similar actions. On this one, and I lived through it, I cannot say I found the tactics used disproportionate with what was happening in return - horrific, yes, but what was coming back in return was truly barbaric. You cannot let terrorists blow up and torture your civilians (including childrend and babies) without response.

Litvenenko? Yes, completely & utterly wrong. Skripal? Yes wrong, but while I am not excusing anything it is well documented that he stepped beyond the 'unwritten code' and started selling information after he had retired. No debate, he (and his daughter) shouldn't have been subject to an attempted murder for that but this is a dark and horrible place in the world of espionage and double spying. All a bit Mafia as I understand. And the fact that it happened on UK territory but, effectively, went unchallenged well - I think we all know why that was.

Vlad a proper nutter? Again, depends on definition. He is clearly someone who believes killing is acceptable in the name of his country. But it is not just foaming at the mouth insanity, it is all very cold, very calculated, probably medically psycopathic and all part of his frame of what is within acceptable. But the point of focus should not be Putin, it should be the constant ongoing erosion of trust between East and West - it is present in Russia, China, Middle East and elsewhere. Whoever succeeds Putin will likely be scarred by that, will likely have many of the same frustrations that led Putin to this horrible place. it will not go away when Putin goes away.

Again, before anyone piles on, I'm not trying to justify, support or absolve blame from any of it. I'm just trying to see beyond the 'mad Vlad' banner a bit - not to sympathise but to understand. And I am also pointing out that many (beyond mad Vlad) in Russia may not agree with the war but they will tell you aplenty, as will many in China and elsewhere, that the constant meddling by the US and others in their politics not only causes political instability but heightens tensions and the likelihood of events like we have witnessed.

Many good points and very well put and i appreciate the time taken to respond.

This being said in trying to provide a balanced view, it also feels like your explanations or alternative views could miss the point.

Syria, Putin sided with a man happy to use chemical weapons on his own people. Oh, and provided said weapons.

Skripals, there was enough to kill half of the town.

Putin not a nutter? How about if i qualify it further, an evil nutter?

Everytime i see pictures on TV of those women and kids who are fleeing the war i keep thinking how is this happening in 2022 in Europe