The Ukraine War

[GboroRam]

I'm not sure I understand the comments about Palestine etc. 

Should I have no empathy with Ukrainians because the world has none for Palestinians? Does another humanitarian disaster serve to help the other? 

[Eddie]

8 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I'm not sure I understand the comments about Palestine etc. 

Should I have no empathy with Ukrainians because the world has none for Palestinians? Does another humanitarian disaster serve to help the other? 

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

2 hours ago, ramit said:

 

"When in trouble use the rubble" Vlad has got its catchy slogan. Boris will be proud.

[Highgate]

It's a credit to the Russian people that so many of them are protesting and speaking out against the war, despite the considerable risk to themselves.  Not sure I'd have that kind of courage if I were in their shoes.

The state propaganda machine is working overtime, new laws have been passed making reporting on the Russian military actions by independent journalists illegal and prominent religious leaders have come out supporting the invasion ('christians' being very unchristian in wartime yet again).

And yet, so many Russians are seeing through the nonsense and realize what an unnecessary and deplorable act Putin's invasion really is.

 

[Anon]

54 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I'm not sure I understand the comments about Palestine etc. 

Should I have no empathy with Ukrainians because the world has none for Palestinians? Does another humanitarian disaster serve to help the other? 

I probably shouldn't have offered examples, as that wasn't really the point I was making. Since we're on the subject though, do you not at least find it a little bizarre that millions of people who couldn't point to Ukraine on a map until a month ago are suddenly so empathetic to the plight of the Ukrainians? How empathetic do you think these same people were regarding the separatist war in Donbas that has so far claimed over 10,000 lives? Because I don't recall people putting flags in their twitter bios out of empathy to civilians in that conflict.

[Stive Pesley]

9 minutes ago, Anon said:

I probably shouldn't have offered examples, as that wasn't really the point I was making. Since we're on the subject though, do you not at least find it a little bizarre that millions of people who couldn't point to Ukraine on a map until a month ago are suddenly so empathetic to the plight of the Ukrainians? How empathetic do you think these same people were regarding the separatist war in Donbas that has so far claimed over 10,000 lives? Because I don't recall people putting flags in their twitter bios out of empathy to civilians in that conflict.

I imagine that very few people outside of the region even knew about it. I suspect even you didn't know much about it till it all kicked off in Ukraine, and now you're using it for whataboutery 101 - go figure

 

 

[Highgate]

4 minutes ago, Anon said:

I probably shouldn't have offered examples, as that wasn't really the point I was making. Since we're on the subject though, do you not at least find it a little bizarre that millions of people who couldn't point to Ukraine on a map until a month ago are suddenly so empathetic to the plight of the Ukrainians? How empathetic do you think these same people were regarding the separatist war in Donbas that has so far claimed over 10,000 lives? Because I don't recall people putting flags in their twitter bios out of empathy to civilians in that conflict.

A damning indictment of people's geography knowledge there.  I'd hope the situation isn't so bad in reality, Ukraine is a pretty big place.

I guess everyone has a limited amount of attention and empathy at their disposal.  We can't be in a constant state of despair and depression about all the various troubled areas in the world.  I think most people would care if any particular war or injustice were brought to their attention in a serious way or knew anyone connected with that particular conflict, such as the war in Donbas.  However sometimes events are so shocking and enormous that it grabs everyone's attention....at least for a while.  Such as the invasion of Iraq, or a major terrorist attack, the war in Syria...or now Putin's invasion of Ukraine.  We shouldn't be surprised that bigger and sudden events (especially with those with the potential to escalate even further) get more coverage and receive more global sympathy than other smaller more drawn out events do. That doesn't mean that those suffering in lesser reported conflicts are any less important than the Ukrainians are.  It's just we have a limited attention bandwidth.

[ramit]

8 hours ago, Anon said:

I probably shouldn't have offered examples, as that wasn't really the point I was making. Since we're on the subject though, do you not at least find it a little bizarre that millions of people who couldn't point to Ukraine on a map until a month ago are suddenly so empathetic to the plight of the Ukrainians? How empathetic do you think these same people were regarding the separatist war in Donbas that has so far claimed over 10,000 lives? Because I don't recall people putting flags in their twitter bios out of empathy to civilians in that conflict.

You are not supposed to ask uncomfortable probing question like that

[Anon]

8 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

I imagine that very few people outside of the region even knew about it. I suspect even you didn't know much about it till it all kicked off in Ukraine, and now you're using it for whataboutery 101 - go figure

Once again the whataboutery wasn't really the point of the original reply. I simply said that I don't post in this thread under the illusion of helping Ukrainians as a response to this utterly facile point;

1 hour ago, Stive Pesley said:

I imagine the people of Ukraine are ever so pleased that we've identified the root cause and they can expect to stop getting shelled immediately 

 

[Mick Brolly]

3 hours ago, bcnram said:

He absolutely is entitled to express his opinion. Meanwhile, in Moscow and other Russian cities that is not quite the case.

Who said he wasn’t?

[GboroRam]

34 minutes ago, Anon said:

Once again the whataboutery wasn't really the point of the original reply. I simply said that I don't post in this thread under the illusion of helping Ukrainians as a response to this utterly facile point;

 

I think people are easily placated that we're the good guys going into foreign countries to save them. That's why I was interested to hear from baalocks, who told us a little bit about the Russian perspective. Perhaps it can be forgiven to some extent that some Russian people believe the narrative that their troops are going in to liberate the country. It's no different to what we tell ourselves. 

[PistoldPete]

27 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I think people are easily placated that we're the good guys going into foreign countries to save them. That's why I was interested to hear from baalocks, who told us a little bit about the Russian perspective. Perhaps it can be forgiven to some extent that some Russian people believe the narrative that their troops are going in to liberate the country. It's no different to what we tell ourselves. 

I think Zelenskyy is different to Saddam Hussein or the Taliban, or is that what I am telling myself?

[Alph]

I do feel a bit like posting pictures some of the thousands of drone strikes worth of damage done by America. 

Of all the orphans, the homeless, the dead civilians caused by America. 

Of the human side to Napalm strikes and atomic bombs. 

But as @Stive Pesleyquite rightly points out.. to do that basically can only be taken as feck Ukraine it's about time The East fought back. 

But at the same time nobody gives a feck. 

Palestinians getting slaughtered? Famine in Afghanistan? Iraq towns looking like a an apocalypse movie? That just happens. Thats what those crazy Muslims do, they blow stuff up. They love a good war over in the Middle East. 

When is a good time to bring up the nation sitting at the top of the Warmonger leaderboard? Now is insensitive but it feels like nobody engages with it unless there's a situation like this. 

Korean War, Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and then we talk about their support of rebellions and such. The support of Israel.

How many civilians have died under their aggressive military campaigns. Some of these military operations make sense and others not so much. But we don't put it under microscope like we are Ukraine. We don't tell the human side of these conflicts. 

Some of them are glorified in Hollywood!! Let's not even pretend domestically America is bliss. The racial tensions, the extreme wealth and poverty, the health care, the gun crime... it's rich to be playing world police.

So frustrating. But yeah... doesn't make Putin anything like right. 

I'm going to America in May ? 

[bcnram]

33 minutes ago, Mick Brolly said:

Who said he wasn’t?

Yes, but probably better with two eggs rather than gravy granules! ?

[Day]

6 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I'm going to America in May ? 

Just don’t link this topic on your visa application ?

[GboroRam]

27 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I do feel a bit like posting pictures some of the thousands of drone strikes worth of damage done by America. 

Of all the orphans, the homeless, the dead civilians caused by America. 

Of the human side to Napalm strikes and atomic bombs. 

But as @Stive Pesleyquite rightly points out.. to do that basically can only be taken as feck Ukraine it's about time The East fought back. 

But at the same time nobody gives a feck. 

Palestinians getting slaughtered? Famine in Afghanistan? Iraq towns looking like a an apocalypse movie? That just happens. Thats what those crazy Muslims do, they blow stuff up. They love a good war over in the Middle East. 

When is a good time to bring up the nation sitting at the top of the Warmonger leaderboard? Now is insensitive but it feels like nobody engages with it unless there's a situation like this. 

Korean War, Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and then we talk about their support of rebellions and such. The support of Israel.

How many civilians have died under their aggressive military campaigns. Some of these military operations make sense and others not so much. But we don't put it under microscope like we are Ukraine. We don't tell the human side of these conflicts. 

Some of them are glorified in Hollywood!! Let's not even pretend domestically America is bliss. The racial tensions, the extreme wealth and poverty, the health care, the gun crime... it's rich to be playing world police.

So frustrating. But yeah... doesn't make Putin anything like right. 

I'm going to America in May ? 

I'm not even sure nobody gives a feck. They either were opposed to those wars, or were uninformed to the point they had no opinion - or they justified it because, well, we're the good guys. 

It's simple side taking. China = bad, Russia = bad, fundamentalist regime = bad. Heroic British soldiers = good. USA soldiers = arrogant but mostly good because they're on our side. You get the gist. 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, David said:

Just don’t link this topic on your visa application ?

The Mrs warned me

"Don't you dare start on one of your Palestine, anti America rants. You're a right knob head when you start and if you get arrested then I won't call a solicitor until its time to go home" 

More oppression imo but I'd rather fight Putin

Edited March 7, 2022 by Alpha

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Korean War, Cuban Missile Crisis, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Gulf War, Somalia, Haiti, Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and then we talk about their support of rebellions and such. The support of Israel.
 

I know you that's just a sample and you weren't attempting a complete tally of American war crimes, but I think toppling the fledgling democracy in Iran in the 1950s should be mentioned on any such list. Such a cynical intervention with far reaching consequences.

What might Iran look like now if it's own home grown democracy had been allowed to flourish there?  Maybe democracy would have spread to neighbouring countries.  But instead,  helped by the UK (whose idea it was in the first place), the US toppled the democratically elected leader and replaced him with a puppet dictator loyal to Washington.

But, as you have said yourself, it doesn't matter how long the list of the West's crimes are....it doesn't make what Putin is doing in Ukraine right now any less abhorrent. We are not being hypocritical when we criticize Putin just because we happen to live in the West. 

[cstand]

5 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Mate - just listen to him in that clip

He is essentially passing on Putin's warning to the EU. This is what I mean - in retrospect it's so blatant.

If he's not an asset, he's been Putin's useful idiot all along

 

 

 

Will we have agree to disagree on this.

But I am sure we can both agree the conflict needs to be resolved asap but I am not sure how. Will Putin want just the East of Ukraine or want to conquer the whole country?

 

[Leeds Ram]

2 hours ago, GboroRam said:

I'm not even sure nobody gives a feck. They either were opposed to those wars, or were uninformed to the point they had no opinion - or they justified it because, well, we're the good guys. 

It's simple side taking. China = bad, Russia = bad, fundamentalist regime = bad. Heroic British soldiers = good. USA soldiers = arrogant but mostly good because they're on our side. You get the gist. 

Is it simple side taking or is it because China's a genocidal territorially aggressive authoritarian nightmare and Russia is a territorially aggressive authoritarian country? Maybe people liberal democracy i.e., people having choices about how they live and how they are governed is a good thing and believe that the international principle of r2p is worth implementing. 

It's been one of my bug bears about this thread, the use of false equivalences (Iraq was the same etc.) when it's absolutely morally and geopolitically nowhere near the same thing with what is happening in Ukraine right now.