v Millwall (H) Match Thread

[Alty_Ram]

7 minutes ago, ttkk said:

Tame Millwall fan here. I have posted before, but not for a while...

 

Cheers for that. Always good to get reasonable sensible feedback from the opposition particularly if they were actually there and for the record I think you make some very fair observations.

Personally I will never belittle or have a pop at someone who supports a London club and chooses to support a team outside of the Premier League 'glamour' clubs. Nobody supports Millwall because the of opportunity for everlasting glory and International fame and trophies you have to respect that. My local team is Altrincham and you have to admire their fans spirit given that we have Man United and Man City just down the road. Millwall may be unfashionable but frankly so are Derby - we don't get many glory seekers either. The 'story' of our rise to some top level success was the story of a deeply unfashionable club made good.

You are obviously aware that your fans have a certain reputation but I have always thought of that (these days at least) as mostly pantomime baddie stuff. If other fans are going to think it anyway then what the hell, lets play up to that a bit. I remember having a wry smile when I first heard 'No one likes us we don't care' and the last year or so I think some of us can empathise with that. I also remember parking next to a car load of your lads at service station a few years back and concluded quite quickly that as with most things in life, take people as you find them. There was a bit of banter with the lads in our car of course but all good.

Your point re the amount of time that we have spent in the same league is also on the money. I think we are are all acutely aware of how long we have been kicking around this division and most of us have been looking forward to the day when we manage to escape it but I don't think many were expecting it to be by the League 1 trapdoor though. Meh, that's football I guess. Plenty of points to play for still but we are absolutely threadbare as a squad and our captain getting a straight red and missing last night was not ideal but we'll fight till the end and all that.

You're as good as your last game or last season. Achievements of decades ago, while they are a nice thing to have in the bag, are just that, yesterdays glory. If you take our one ill-fated embarrassment of a PL season out of the equation then a significant proportion of the crowd would never have seen us play in the top flight never mind win it (probably those under 25). We are what we are, in club terms a pretty big fish in a small-ish pond but just one of several similarly supported teams. The club is part of the City though and will always be a source of immense pride for us. Recent traumas have just increased the solidarity between fans and team and if we survive the ownership and financial stuff then we'll play in whatever division we end up in and we'll have a good time doing it.
 

Thanks for the good wishes. Appreciated. We sometimes have to filter out the hysterical noise from Forest, Leeds and Boro fans to get a bit of perspective as to what others make of our situation.

[ttkk]

4 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Scott Malone is just a twit and was when he was here.  He seems just as highly regarded at other places he's been.  I seem to recall a fair few of your own supporters reminiscing that he was a **** *** and not that keen for him to come back when it was mooted. Derby stuck by Bennett through a number of personal issues - not just the infamous car journey- and gave him 3 contracts when he was absolute dog poo or terminally injured.  His behaviour since leaving here in regard to this has been, quite frankly, abhorrent.  

Oh yes, Malone gets called allsorts by us. 

Bennett seems like a troubled young man, but troubled young men can become wiser older men... see Troy Deeney. 

[ttkk]

9 minutes ago, Alty_Ram said:

 
You are obviously aware that your fans have a certain reputation but I have always thought of that (these days at least) as mostly pantomime baddie stuff. If other fans are going to think it anyway then what the hell, lets play up to that a bit. I remember having a wry smile when I first heard 'No one likes us we don't care' and the last year or so I think some of us can empathise with that. I also remember parking next to a car load of your lads at service station a few years back and concluded quite quickly that as with most things in life, take people as you find them. There was a bit of banter with the lads in our car of course but all good.

 

Yep. I would agree with that. There is still an active 'element', but no one is steaming into away fans at the turnstiles anymore. Mostly is is as you say, pantomime stuff. 

I will always argue that the Millwall fanbase is more Only Fools and Horses than Football Factory. Always. But unless you live in the area or frequent the local pubs, you are unlikely to come across that side of the fanbase. Instead you witness some obnoxious idiots at a train station or in the stands, or highlighted on the news... and that is what you think all Millwall fans are.

[ttkk]

51 minutes ago, TheresOnlyWanChope said:

Good post. Probably was a 'typical Millwall' performance but I wouldn't mind that if it were my team winning. Thought Millwall were really good in the first half. Closed everything down, forced Derby into errors. Millwall do have to compete with a lot of clubs in London for support. Notice now that Millwall have 24 wins to Derby's 23 wins in past meetings. The Derby v Millwall fixture at Pride Park has become a bogey match recently (for Derby).

Yes, it is weird how we have become your bogey side in recent years. As I would have Derby County as one of the genuine big clubs at this level, but there isn't that 'derby' feel that we get when we play (and beat) Leeds and Stoke City. By that, I mean you can perhaps explain that more... Millwall getting themselves up to beat Leeds. 

My most vivid memories are bittersweet... our first ever top flight game at The Den was against Derby County. We won 1-0 and my granddad was very proud, as he considered Derby County a top and grand old side. But then there was that horrific, in every sense, play-off game in 1994!! 

[ttkk]

48 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

You lost me at that bit. 

 

BTW I meant as in 'brands' (ergh). Sadly, thanks to Sky, Tottenham Hotspur and West Ham United (spit) are some of the biggest clubs in world football. They generate huge revenues. Both could probably buy AC Milan as a feeder club nowadays. How sad is that? 

Besides, the point is... both them (and Arsenal and Chelsea) are a very quick tube ride away. We cannot compete with them for attracting fans. Millwall have to depend on the old working class communities still left in places like Bermondsey, Walworth, Rotherhithe, Deptford, Catford, Camberwell and New Cross, plus the exiled fans in Greater London areas like Eltham and Welling. 

That is why is was amazing to see Pride Park last night. I mean that. A city and region getting behind their club, whose players have their backs against the wall. It is a very special thing. There was a real sense of place and pride. 

[Mucker1884]

I'm liking our new visitor... such a shame he failed to add a bracketed spit after referencing the name Not**ng*am *ores*.

Had he have done so, I would have sent him a virtual pint!  ?

 

?

 

[Alty_Ram]

13 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

I'm liking our new visitor... such a shame he failed to add a bracketed spit after referencing the name Not**ng*am *ores*.

Had he have done so, I would have sent him a virtual pint!  ?

 

?

 

Far too reasonable, balanced and informed. What is he/she thinking ?

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

42 minutes ago, ttkk said:

Yes, it is weird how we have become your bogey side in recent years. As I would have Derby County as one of the genuine big clubs at this level, but there isn't that 'derby' feel that we get when we play (and beat) Leeds and Stoke City. By that, I mean you can perhaps explain that more... Millwall getting themselves up to beat Leeds. 

My most vivid memories are bittersweet... our first ever top flight game at The Den was against Derby County. We won 1-0 and my granddad was very proud, as he considered Derby County a top and grand old side. But then there was that horrific, in every sense, play-off game in 1994!! 

Maybe there is more history of needle or aggro between Millwall and Leeds/Stoke or more memorable matches. I think playing big clubs doesn't necessarily make it a big match feel. Just depends I guess. West Brom are probably a big club in this division and local ish. Never really get any sort of big match feel about that fixture though compared to fixtures against some other teams.

[Ghost of Clough]

1 hour ago, ttkk said:

Moreover, I was first taken to The Den by my granddad and uncle in 1985. By my maths, in the 37 seasons that have followed, Millwall and Derby County have played at the same level in 23 of them. That hardly suggests that going by endevours on the pitch, that Derby County are a vastly superior outfit.

Seasons in the top division
Millwall - 2
Derby - 65

Millwall have always been an upper 1st division / lower 2nd division side, whereas Derby are an upper 2nd division / lower 1st division side.
This is also evidenced by the all time average league table, ranking Derby 13th (average position of just worse than 20th), vs Millwall down at 47th (average league position just worse than 50th)

[Alty_Ram]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Seasons in the top division
Millwall - 2
Derby - 65

Millwall have always been an upper 1st division / lower 2nd division side, whereas Derby are an upper 2nd division / lower 1st division side.
This is also evidenced by the all time average league table, ranking Derby 13th (average position of just worse than 20th), vs Millwall down at 47th (average league position just worse than 50th)

I think this is all a matter of perspective though. Fans of a certain vintage will remember the glory days of the 70s but younger fans may have a very different perception of our status. If you are an 18 year old Derby fan then a League Championship 30 years before you were born achieved by men with massive sideburns playing on a paddy field on grainy TV clips feels like an age ago. You're aware of it of course and know that it is important as a club but it doesn't match your experience.

[ttkk]

42 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Seasons in the top division
Millwall - 2
Derby - 65

Millwall have always been an upper 1st division / lower 2nd division side, whereas Derby are an upper 2nd division / lower 1st division side.
This is also evidenced by the all time average league table, ranking Derby 13th (average position of just worse than 20th), vs Millwall down at 47th (average league position just worse than 50th)

I would never dispute the fact that Derby County are the far more successful club historically. 

I was just disputing the term ‘tin-pot’ for us… given our story, character and standing.

And I was merely pointing out that in my not too insignificant period of football support (ie four decades worth), Millwall and Derby County have played in the same division, more often than not. 
 

I have also seen Nottingham Forest (best mate is a Forest fan - his dad moved down here in the 1970s) and Sheffield Wednesday fans have this almost sneering attitude towards us too. Yet, both Forest and Wednesday have been out divisional peers even more than Derby County have in the last four decades. In fact, Wednesday and Forest have both been / currently reside in the third tier! 

As a club, Millwall can certainly look down on the likes of Chelsea and Crystal Palace in terms of foundation and historical credentials - but I doubt that’s going to cut much ice with anyone born after 1900 now! 

Edited February 24, 2022 by ttkk

[ttkk]

43 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Seasons in the top division
Millwall - 2
Derby - 65

Millwall have always been an upper 1st division / lower 2nd division side, whereas Derby are an upper 2nd division / lower 1st division side.
This is also evidenced by the all time average league table, ranking Derby 13th (average position of just worse than 20th), vs Millwall down at 47th (average league position just worse than 50th)

The only thing I would take issue with is this ‘average’ idea. Especially as many southern clubs had to wait for the expansion of the Football League in 1920, plus the fact that there was a Division Three (South) and a Division Three (North) up until 1958. 

When looking at a clubs’ standing I think it makes more sense to look at the number of seasons they have played at a certain level compared to others.

That is to say, Millwall have played more second tier seasons than most clubs. They are solid second tier club. If you get relegated to the second tier you’d expect to play Millwall, as well as Cardiff City, Portsmouth, Barnsley, Charlton Athletic - as other examples. 

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

7 minutes ago, ttkk said:

I would never dispute the fact that Derby County are the far more successful club historically. 

I was just disputing the term ‘tin-pot’ for us… given our story, character and standing.

And I was merely pointing out that in my not too insignificant period of football support (ie four decades worth), Millwall and Derby County have played in the same division, more often than not. 
 

I have also seen Nottingham Forest (best mate is a Forest fan - his dad moved down here in the 1970s) and Sheffield Wednesday fans have this almost sneering attitude towards us too. Yet, both Forest and Wednesday have been out divisional peers even more than Derby County have in the last four decades. In fact, Wednesday and Forest have both been / currently reside in the third tier! 

As a club, Millwall can certainly look down on the likes of Chelsea and Crystal Palace in terms of foundation and historical credentials - but I doubt that’s going to cut much ice with anyone born after 1900 now! 

Good points. Millwall are known around the world actually. Tin pot is just used By some to disparage other teams.. usually the team we have just been defeated by!

Derby is a big club definitely (it’s all relative) in terms of fan base but in my lifetime there has been very little achievement- promotion etc and top division for a few years. 
I remember talking to a Leicester mate a few years ago before their Prem win and I did ask him what they had ever won etc, then he asked me, yeh but were you around in the 70s  to see it etc? I had no comeback. I realise although it’s a sense of pride to have history as a club, I didn’t witness the league titles, or charity shied, Texaco and Watney Cups or European Cup finals so I can’t say Derby have been that much more successful than Millwall in my lifetime. 

[Crewton]

38 minutes ago, ttkk said:

best mate is a Forest fan

...and then you go and spoil it all by saying something stupid....??

 

 

[Alty_Ram]

31 minutes ago, ttkk said:

I was just disputing the term ‘tin-pot’ for us… given our story, character and standing.

 

I've always cringed when I hear anyone use that term about other peoples clubs. What are we saying here? Go and support a 'massive' successful club that wins lots of trophies and you'll have my respect ? The opposite I'd say.

As I said elsewhere, people can get very blinkered in terms of how they feel other fans should view their club but as the decades slip by and you get becalmed away from the top flight then entire generations of fans (opposition in particular) start to see you differently to how you do see yourselves. We and Forest haven't won anything in an absolute age. Apart from being a bigger ground to visit with larger crowds, younger opposition fans in particular don't link us to any notable success. Fans under 25 think of the likes of Watford, Crystal Palace and Burnley as established Top Flight sides.

[Ghost of Clough]

28 minutes ago, ttkk said:

The only thing I would take issue with is this ‘average’ idea. Especially as many southern clubs had to wait for the expansion of the Football League in 1920, plus the fact that there was a Division Three (South) and a Division Three (North) up until 1958. 

When looking at a clubs’ standing I think it makes more sense to look at the number of seasons they have played at a certain level compared to others.

That is to say, Millwall have played more second tier seasons than most clubs. They are solid second tier club. If you get relegated to the second tier you’d expect to play Millwall, as well as Cardiff City, Portsmouth, Barnsley, Charlton Athletic - as other examples. 

It's also a fact that Millwall have spent more seasons below the 2nd division than they have in the top 2 divisions.

Derby have spent the 16th most seasons in the top division, Millwall 59th.
 

Another way to look at it is number of seasons in each division:

Derby
1st - 65
2nd - 53
3rd - 4
4th - 0

Millwall (Football League only)
1st - 2
2nd - 45
3rd - 43
4th - 5

[Crewton]

I think I'm right in saying that Millwall's record attendance at the old Den was a cup-tie against us in the 1930's - around 48,000?

[Ambitious]

It was a poor performance yesterday, with an improved second half. I guess these types of performances are going to happen every now and again. You can't build a team like we have an expect heroics game-in, game-out. We critically lack talent and depth, despite having a great spirit for the game, ultimately those two things will cause performances like last night to happen at times. 

Two big away games coming up, followed by a huge home game against Barnsley. It's not over until it's over, but I feel by the next three games we will know for sure if we're out of it. 

[Rammy03]

1 hour ago, Alty_Ram said:

As I said elsewhere, people can get very blinkered in terms of how they feel other fans should view their club but as the decades slip by and you get becalmed away from the top flight then entire generations of fans (opposition in particular) start to see you differently to how you do see yourselves. We and Forest haven't won anything in an absolute age. Apart from being a bigger ground to visit with larger crowds, younger opposition fans in particular don't link us to any notable success. Fans under 25 think of the likes of Watford, Crystal Palace and Burnley as established Top Flight sides.

But it's obvious to anyone that Derby is a far bigger club than Watford for example. All you need to know is a little bit of the history. Look at the size of the fanbase, we get better crowds than most bottom half premier league sides.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Rammy03

[Alty_Ram]

1 minute ago, Rammy03 said:

It's obvious to anyone that Derby is a far bigger club than Watford for example. All you need to know is a little bit of the history. Look at the size of our fanbase, we get better crowds than most bottom half premier league sides.

That's the theory and I agree in principle re Watford but what is a big club ? Biggest average crowds ? Most titles won ? Net worth ? That's a 500 post thread right there. For the Sky generation who will they see on TV going toe to toe with Liverpool and Man City on TV on Saturday night ? Not us sadly. It's not just a matter of your crowds or trophies that you won 50 years ago, sooner or later your status needs justifying in the here and now.