-15 points on exiting administration??

[PistoldPete]

5 hours ago, atherstoneram said:

MP's can suggest what they like, it makes them look as if they care.It is up to HMRC and the Exchequer to make the final decision. Some MP's would go to the opening of an envelope if it made them look good.

No it's not up to HMRC. Ultimately if HMRC do not agree a compromise it will be up to the insolvency court to decide. And if Parliament is saying on record that HMRC are not the issue then well that's not going to help HMRC contest the fundamental truth  that HMRC are better off with something rather than nothing.

[SKRam]

Glad you’re all keeping up. Regional news tonight I thought sounded promising then I read this thread 

[Charlie George]

Ignore Maguire. He's a self opinionated stirrer.

[atherstoneram]

1 hour ago, PistoldPete said:

No it's not up to HMRC. Ultimately if HMRC do not agree a compromise it will be up to the insolvency court to decide. And if Parliament is saying on record that HMRC are not the issue then well that's not going to help HMRC contest the fundamental truth  that HMRC are better off with something rather than nothing.

HMRC have a big say as to a company wanting to exit administration,the club has to satisfy HMRC as well as the EFL. The HMRC have their own rules for the club to adhere to not just the EFL.

And as you keep repeating something is better than nothing but for them to accept something it has to be acceptable to them,they don't have to or will accept just any offer.  

[i-Ram]

8 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

He seems to be saying that we get -15 if we don't pay HMRC 100%, not that we *have* to pay 100%. We can negotiate lower but that will automatically trigger the deduction.

I think there is some misunderstanding going on here, because of terminology.

I think Maquire is meaning Football Creditors when he refers to preferred creditors; preferred under the rules of the EFL needing to be paid 100%.  HMRC are PREFERENTIAL not preferred creditors, but they are unsecured also. So HMRC only need to be paid 25% to meet EFL rules threshold. Whether HMRC will accept as little as 25% is unknown, but fwiw based on the way the tide seems to be going at the moment, I think they will.

c.c. @Ghost of Clough

[uttoxram75]

2 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I think there is some misunderstanding going on here, because of terminology.

I think Maquire is meaning Football Creditors when he refers to preferred creditors; preferred under the rules of the EFL needing to be paid 100%.  HMRC are PREFERENTIAL not preferred creditors, but they are unsecured also. So HMRC only need to be paid 25% to meet EFL rules threshold. Whether HMRC will accept as little as 25% is unknown, but fwiw based on the way the tide seems to be going at the moment, I think they will.

c.c. @Ghost of Clough

I think you are correct. Lets ask him eh @The Baron ?

[Indy]

27 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I think there is some misunderstanding going on here, because of terminology.

I think Maquire is meaning Football Creditors when he refers to preferred creditors; preferred under the rules of the EFL needing to be paid 100%.  HMRC are PREFERENTIAL not preferred creditors, but they are unsecured also. So HMRC only need to be paid 25% to meet EFL rules threshold. Whether HMRC will accept as little as 25% is unknown, but fwiw based on the way the tide seems to be going at the moment, I think they will.

c.c. @Ghost of Clough

Thanks. I think that’s what I meant when I tweeted Kieran, but I wasn’t 100% sure what the changes that came in recently regarding HMRC’s status in football insolvencies meant. 

[Ghost of Clough]

29 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I think there is some misunderstanding going on here, because of terminology.

I think Maquire is meaning Football Creditors when he refers to preferred creditors; preferred under the rules of the EFL needing to be paid 100%.  HMRC are PREFERENTIAL not preferred creditors, but they are unsecured also. So HMRC only need to be paid 25% to meet EFL rules threshold. Whether HMRC will accept as little as 25% is unknown, but fwiw based on the way the tide seems to be going at the moment, I think they will.

c.c. @Ghost of Clough

Preferential = preferred

HMRC became preferential in Dec 2020.

Is it only Football creditors who're due 100% or all preferential creditors? 

[i-Ram]

5 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Preferential = preferred

HMRC became preferential in Dec 2020.

Is it only Football creditors who're due 100% or all preferential creditors? 

I am just saying my guess is that Maguire is calling football creditors as ‘preferred’, and this is just terminology confusion. 

[Quagga]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Preferential = preferred

HMRC became preferential in Dec 2020.

Is it only Football creditors who're due 100% or all preferential creditors? 

Let me guess, the EFL has had the opportunity to update their rules in 2021 to clarify that football creditors rank even higher than HMRC, and haven't quite got round to it.

[kevinhectoring]

9 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

From what I've seen, he also seems to be arguing that preferred creditors (including HMRC) need to be paid 100% to avoid the 15 point penalty, but I can't find any rules anywhere to back that up.

I thought the rules only distinguished between football creditors (100%) and unsecured creditors (25%). If that’s right, and if HMRC is paid 25% or more, there’s no further penalty 

[duncanjwitham]

17 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

I thought the rules only distinguished between football creditors (100%) and unsecured creditors (25%). If that’s right, and if HMRC is paid 25% or more, there’s no further penalty 

That was my understanding too, but Maguire has been consistent on this since day one, and I can’t find the relevant bit of EFL rules anywhere to confirm either way.

[kevinhectoring]

12 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

That was my understanding too, but Maguire has been consistent on this since day one, and I can’t find the relevant bit of EFL rules anywhere to confirm either way.

No I couldn’t find the insolvency policy either.
 

 This is from some Q and As which EFL responded to re L Orient. There’s no mention of ‘preferred creditors’ (in the strict sense) 

...........................................................

Q&As ON ADMINISTRATION / INSOLVENCY – FOOTBALL LEAGUE (EFL)
(Answers were provided by the EFL following contact by LOFT:)

Q: We gather a club entering administration has to pay creditors 35p in the £ within a three year period or face a further deduction of 15 points the following season. Is that correct?
 
A: Clubs are required to pay Football Creditors in full. Other creditors must be paid 25p in the pound on exit or 35p in pound over a 3 year period.

Q: Presumably re the above, creditors would include investments / loans from the previous owner or do these not apply

A: The minimum dividend relates to unsecured creditors only. Agreement would have to be reached with secured creditors.

 

Q: If a club is unable to pay its creditors the threshold of 35p, but can meet a much lower figure then what happens regarding any points deduction?

A: It is applied at a time determined by the EFL Board but ordinarily at the commencement of the following season

Edited January 25, 2022 by kevinhectoring

[duncanjwitham]

4 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

No I couldn’t find the insolvency policy either.
 

 This is from some Q and As which EFL responded to re L Orient:

Q&As ON ADMINISTRATION / INSOLVENCY – FOOTBALL LEAGUE (EFL)
(Answers were provided by the EFL following contact by LOFT:)

Q: We gather a club entering administration has to pay creditors 35p in the £ within a three year period or face a further deduction of 15 points the following season. Is that correct?
 
A: Clubs are required to pay Football Creditors in full. Other creditors must be paid 25p in the pound on exit or 35p in pound over a 3 year period.

Q: Presumably re the above, creditors would include investments / loans from the previous owner or do these not apply

A: The minimum dividend relates to unsecured creditors only. Agreement would have to be reached with secured creditors.

 

Q: If a club is unable to pay its creditors the threshold of 35p, but can meet a much lower figure then what happens regarding any points deduction?

A: It is applied at a time determined by the EFL Board but ordinarily at the commencement of the following season

Yeah I’ve found similar, but nothing official. And my understanding is that in our case, everyone bar MSD are unsecured creditors (with football creditors being a special case of those).

[Ghost of Clough]

8 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

pay Football Creditors in full. Other creditors must be paid 25p in the pound

I think this is pretty clear.

[uttoxram75]

18 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

That was my understanding too, but Maguire has been consistent on this since day one, and I can’t find the relevant bit of EFL rules anywhere to confirm either way.

Maguire has campaigned ferociously against Derby for a few years now. Gibson and Parry have been bombarded by his anti-Derby rhetoric to the point that we are guilty whatever the actual facts say.

[Rich84]

3 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Maguire has campaigned ferociously against Derby for a few years now. Gibson and Parry have been bombarded by his anti-Derby rhetoric to the point that we are guilty whatever the actual facts say.

And yet radio Derby keep rolling him out to further tickle his ego, despise the man almost as much as MM and SG

Edited January 25, 2022 by Rich84
Spelling

[Crewton]

Preferred creditors can be paid whatever they're willing to accept - that's the whole point of having "preferred" status. Despite what some people will insist, most preferred creditors are pragmatic, even HMRC (though the idea that they might want to send the industry a hard message can't be discounted).

As far as I'm aware, the EFL are primarily concerned with Football Creditors, Steve Gibson and unsecured creditors : they are happy to allow preferred creditors to negotiate.