Where Rooney ranks compared to other Rams managers

[Tyler Durden]

Just now, David said:

I wasn't around then, couldn't tell you anything about that. Different game back then though wasn't it, not the money that's going around now?

Believe both to be true, happy to be corrected though by anyone.

I'm labouring the same point again so apologies. 

[Day]

9 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Believe both to be true, happy to be corrected though by anyone.

I'm labouring the same point again so apologies. 

If we're going back that far though, does suggest it's not an everyday situation Rooney finds himself in though surely?

Back in the Taylor days did we have FFP, transfer embargo's and all that kind of mess to deal with?

I'm sure we've had dark days way back, but we're entering that similar debate over who's the goat, Maradona, Pele, Messi or Ronaldo, different eras.

Again, just to clarify I do not believe Rooney is above any criticism, I guess I just view the circumstances to be working under to be more harsh than what others do.

[Bob The Badger]

On 16/12/2021 at 11:46, Jimbo Ram said:

This season has been very difficult but he certainly should have done better last season…..

Of course he should, what a loser.

Ok, so he inherited a poor team, a transfer embargo, a lack of experience, a 21 point reduction, a pandemic, less fervent/vocal support, a squad that know they are going down and a thinning thatch, but come on MAN, you are inept!

Sack him, sack the board and sack that sack that was used to carry all the P-45s in.

Well done @Jimbo Ram you brought a voice of reason to the proceedings. 

[Ghost of Clough]

25 minutes ago, Dimmu said:

Also 2nd most minutes given to academy graduates and U21s last time I checked.

It's a squad of two extremes, weighted heavily by the defence with the two CBs having a combined age of 75

[Dimmu]

4 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Also 2nd most minutes given to academy graduates and U21s last time I checked.

It's a squad of two extremes, weighted heavily by the defence with the two CBs having a combined age of 75

Yeah, the age structure is all wrong. Has been for quite a while, pretty much since Snake.

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, Jimbo Ram said:

I think the Peter Taylor comparison is closer to what Wazza is currently facing…..

That's before my time and I don't know a ton about it ? 

[Leeds Ram]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Stuck with a squad he inherited and only able to get castoffs in on loan who no one else wanted.

Davies, Edmundson, Mengi, and Wisdom all injured for the run in, weren't they?

I don't think Mengi nor Edmunson were out for the final 15 games? Maybe for the final few but my memory may well be failing me. I don't think picking up 6 points out of a possible 48 (off the top of my head i think that was the stat) was defensible and presiding over a run of form worse than the form at the beginning of the season that cost Cocu his job ( and rightly so).  The squad wasn't great but almost any squad at this level would be capable of putting a few more points on the board. The line up against the 3-0 defeat to Preston was for instance 

Marshall-gk 

back 4 of Clarke, wisdom, Forsyth and Byrne

Midfield of Bird and Shinnie

Forward line of Knight, Lawrence, Roberts, and CKR. 

The subs that came on were waghorn, Edmunson, Buchanan and Ebosele. 

 

Do people really think that line up was so awful? On paper it looks like a bang average championship team, not a team that couldn't buy a win for 1/3rd of a league season. It wasn't just the results that were bad but the performances and insane tactical shifts from week to week would have made Rooney's position at that time completely untenable at almost any other club. 

I do think he's done a much better job this season than last but I'm not as convinced as other people that it's still been a particularly great job. He's instilled a good spirit and made us hard to beat in general which is good but I'm oftentimes not overly convinced by his tactics and we don't win many games. Considering we're going to be in league 1 next season and we need to be pushing for promotion I'm not convinced Rooney is the man to do that. 

[Jimbo Ram]

40 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

Of course he should, what a loser.

Ok, so he inherited a poor team, a transfer embargo, a lack of experience, a 21 point reduction, a pandemic, less fervent/vocal support, a squad that know they are going down and a thinning thatch, but come on MAN, you are inept!

Sack him, sack the board and sack that sack that was used to carry all the P-45s in.

Well done @Jimbo Ram you brought a voice of reason to the proceedings. 

Yep, be interesting to see what the new owners will do Bob, keep him or bring someone new in, fresh new start etc ???

[Jimbo Ram]

7 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I don't think Mengi nor Edmunson were out for the final 15 games? Maybe for the final few but my memory may well be failing me. I don't think picking up 6 points out of a possible 48 (off the top of my head i think that was the stat) was defensible and presiding over a run of form worse than the form at the beginning of the season that cost Cocu his job ( and rightly so).  The squad wasn't great but almost any squad at this level would be capable of putting a few more points on the board. The line up against the 3-0 defeat to Preston was for instance 

Marshall-gk 

back 4 of Clarke, wisdom, Forsyth and Byrne

Midfield of Bird and Shinnie

Forward line of Knight, Lawrence, Roberts, and CKR. 

The subs that came on were waghorn, Edmunson, Buchanan and Ebosele. 

 

Do people really think that line up was so awful? On paper it looks like a bang average championship team, not a team that couldn't buy a win for 1/3rd of a league season. It wasn't just the results that were bad but the performances and insane tactical shifts from week to week would have made Rooney's position at that time completely untenable at almost any other club. 

I do think he's done a much better job this season than last but I'm not as convinced as other people that it's still been a particularly great job. He's instilled a good spirit and made us hard to beat in general which is good but I'm oftentimes not overly convinced by his tactics and we don't win many games. Considering we're going to be in league 1 next season and we need to be pushing for promotion I'm not convinced Rooney is the man to do that. 

Yep, a mid table team that should not have been anywhere near the bottom 3 ?

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

Peter Taylor took over the club when they were bottom and steered them to a mid table finish that season.

The following season the club avoided going into administration largely due to revenues generated from the cup run which Taylor oversaw. 

But he had Bobby Davison playing for him so that's OK. Even though Rooney had a number of international players at his disposal likewise but they don't count. 

There's no doubt that Taylor & McFarland's rescue act in 82/83 was a kind of miracle, but the signing of Davison, Gemmill, Hooks and Robertson were crucial, and significant fees were paid for at least two of those. Mid-table is pushing it however - Derby could still have been relegated on the last day of the season if they'd lost to Fulham and other results had gone against them (just like Rooney last season in fact). 83/84 season was a disaster though. The Cup run helped, but the only things that kept the club in business were the efforts of Stuart Webb and the Maxwell CVA deal, with considerable help from the City Council. 

Ultimately, both campaigns, 82/83 and last season, came down to must-win final games at home against teams with something to play for. The big difference was that Taylor's team played their game at a packed, raucous and partisan Baseball Ground. And they had a Bobby Davison. 

[Jimbo Ram]

51 minutes ago, Crewton said:

There's no doubt that Taylor & McFarland's rescue act in 82/83 was a kind of miracle, but the signing of Davison, Gemmill, Hooks and Robertson were crucial, and significant fees were paid for at least two of those. Mid-table is pushing it however - Derby could still have been relegated on the last day of the season if they'd lost to Fulham and other results had gone against them (just like Rooney last season in fact). 83/84 season was a disaster though. The Cup run helped, but the only things that kept the club in business were the efforts of Stuart Webb and the Maxwell CVA deal, with considerable help from the City Council. 

Ultimately, both campaigns, 82/83 and last season, came down to must-win final games at home against teams with something to play for. The big difference was that Taylor's team played their game at a packed, raucous and partisan Baseball Ground. And they had a Bobby Davison. 

Mustn’t lose last day games. Hooks was Mr average and Archie Gemmill was nearly as old as our other 2 stars Dave Watson and Kenny Burns ? Taylor I think lost 1 of his last 15 games compared with Wazza winning 1 of his last 15. I know who I think did better with equally poor squads. Arise Sir Peter….

[europia]

10 hours ago, David said:

Fair enough, I don't think they are wild opinions to hold though, which is what they are, opinions. 

If anyone is trying to pass it off as facts then they are wrong, but it's no different to those that say we would have beaten Villa had we played Marriott over Bennett.

Rooney hasn't been flawless, it's his first job in management, you have experienced managers such as Klopp that say they are still learning so it's a given that Rooney will make mistakes but I don't believe he should be crucified for them.

No of course he hasn't been flawless.... ditto any other pro football manager.  Rooney's performance is probably not far off what many would have expected, from an unqualified rookie manager. 

[uttoxram75]

13 minutes ago, europia said:

No of course he hasn't been flawless.... ditto any other pro football manager.  Rooney's performance is probably not far off what many would have expected, from an unqualified rookie manager. 

Old Pete had 15 years of managerial experience behind him tbf.

[Jimbo Ram]

2 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said:

Old Pete had 15 years of managerial experience behind him tbf.

Exactly ?

[uttoxram75]

9 minutes ago, Jimbo Ram said:

Exactly ?

I think I meant to reply to your post instead of europia's. 

[Chester40]

20 hours ago, David said:

For me, if the season ended today then Rooney is Championship manager of the season by a country mile. 

Some will laugh, but I stand by this, 19th without the deductions, one win away from 14th which is incredible and I think the wider football world is starting to see this now.

Wow. You are generally a really measured and sensible poster, so that is quite the opinion - which as you say you are entitled to.

Personally,  taking everything into account- both the many things he is battling with and also results, style of play, developing players, signings etc etc...

I'd give him 3 or 4 out of 10 for last season.  Maybe 6 or 7 out of 10 for this season. 

A few decent results and he would be doing really well but if things dipped dramatically like last season then he would quickly drop to 5 out of 10 and I'd be happy to see someone else take over the hopeful promotion push next season.

[Dimmu]

18 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Wow. You are generally a really measured and sensible poster, so that is quite the opinion - which as you say you are entitled to.

Personally,  taking everything into account- both the many things he is battling with and also results, style of play, developing players, signings etc etc...

I'd give him 3 or 4 out of 10 for last season.  Maybe 6 or 7 out of 10 for this season. 

A few decent results and he would be doing really well but if things dipped dramatically like last season then he would quickly drop to 5 out of 10 and I'd be happy to see someone else take over the hopeful promotion push next season.

The bolded part is something I've waited someone to post about so wouldn't have to. ? 

We've got good results against big teams and not so from the others. That doesn't suit well for the next season when we should be one of the big ones. Is Rooney up for tat? I don't think so, he has the same negative and careful approach as Nigel did. Small club mentality.

[Tyler Durden]

1 hour ago, Dimmu said:

Is Rooney up for tat? I don't think so, he has the same negative and careful approach as Nigel did. Small club mentality.

Think he needs to have some jailhouse ones done or love and hate on either knuckles that would fill out the look ?

[plymouthram]

On 16/12/2021 at 18:15, Tyler Durden said:

There's massive synergies between the squad Rooney has available and the one Peter Taylor had - regardless of how the squads came about or were inherited by each respective manager. 

Am sure Taylor inherited the club when we were bottom of the league and got us to mid table by the end of that season. Pretty certain as well that the income from the FA Cup run the following season helped stave off the club going into administration (ring any bells).

Cup run, well we need to go on another money spinning cup run

[plymouthram]

Stats of past Derby Managers are all different for lots of reasons. Players available, Transfer monies available, What league the team was playing in, Experience of the manager(in years of coaching etc). You can add all sorts of facts to each one, but few will argue the best man we had was Brian Clough in terms of sucesss.

There seems to be a lot of forum members slating Wayne, especially on last season. Well he certainly was a novice steering the club wearing "L Plates".  He now has a bigger task, no money, 21 points deducted, embargo's, club up for sale etc. But here's some current stats under Wayne's stewardship; 7 defeats (only 7 teams have lost less), 21 goals conceded (only 3 teams have conceded less), -3 goal difference (11 teams have a worse goal diff). Our goals scored are not so good though, but we have'nt got a goal machine in this squad, not Wayne fault but perhaps he might find that from Luke Plange and when fit Jack Stretton. In the 10 draws so far this season, if we had a natural goalscorer we might have won 5 of those draws and would be sat on 14 points with a plus goal difference.

We need to judge Wayne at the end of the season and if we end up playing League One football next season, this will be another big challenge to who ever is in the hot seat.