RamsTrust

[Archied]

52 minutes ago, RamsfanJim said:

I don't think it is a 'tiny fraction' as we have had over 300 new members over the past few months, and there are many more who have remained active throughout - but I absolutely accept all 1200 are not 'active'. They don't need to be - if they are supportive of what the Trust is doing and joined to show that support, then it is up to them how involved they want to be.

I think the above approach is where you will rightly find most friction and actually cause anti rams trust feeling ,it’s a very ambiguous way to count the kind of support and membership you have and represent, perhaps it may be a good thing to actually try to establish what numbers you do actually represent and put that out clearly along with trying to raise those numbers , perhaps a kind of fresh ish start ,saying to people this is where we are NOW, and this is where we would like to be ,,, it’s in the wording,,,,ramsTRUST, if the real membership numbers are small , no shame in that if your open with figures and clear that you really want to build something with some actual oomph ,

im guessing I am still listed as a ramsTRUST member as I can’t remember whether I actually had to officially leave ,let me know if I am still listed as a member and counted , you can pm me for my details 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Archied

[Ram-Alf]

4 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

You should read Pride by Ryan Hills. Ramstrust put a comprehensive 100,000 word dossier together which exposed Mackay and Keith to be the dodgy individuals they were. @RamsfanJim was personally involved in putting it together. Credit where it's due...

JW will get all the credit he deserves, There's no axe to grind with this fella.

[Nuwtfly]

Maybe I am missing some important piece of history involving RamsTrust, but just seems to me that it is getting an absolute (and at times quite personal) bashing from people on here who, by their own admission, know nothing about them or the people involved.

Is it not just a group of supporters who are trying to go about protecting the interests of the club and its fan base? Likely putting in a lot of work/effort for next to no personal gain? What did this group do that it’s got about people’s knickers in a such a twist? Seems like some see this forum as the sanctum of this clubs fan base instead. Maybe there’s a bit of jealousy in there, too. 

Imagine what it would be like if everyone on this forum joined RamsTrust. God help @RamsfanJimand @angieram if that happens.

[RamsfanJim]

We are going back 15 years here (!) but it was RamsTrust that first highlighted concerns with the 3 amigos. Literally on the day they did their press conference we had member digging into their backgrounds and financial records - and highlighted multiple concerns (especially around Murdo Mackay). We got press coverage, and a number of members (myself included) printed and handed out flyers outside the ground to increase fans' awareness on a number of occasions.

Over a few years we exposed more and more details (and complied the dossier mentioned above - which was handed over to Peter Gadsby and the police) - there were a number of responses whcih we asked Jeremy Keith et al in meetings which we minuted and were used in the case against them.

Greg Lake and the RPG did a fantastic job raising the protests to the next level - they put some money in to buy banners / foam hands etc. which had much more impact inside and outside the ground. As mentioned above, RamsTrust could not be seen to be leading those protests as we needed to maintain a relationship with the club to continue our aims (And to continue to question the board). Jeremy Keith personally told me we would be cut off if we promoted protests. We all took part in the protests, but could not be seen to be leading them. 

Peter Gadsby will tell you both were vital - the pressure externally, through the media and particularly pressure on the Co-Op Bank, and fans around the ground protesting both contributed massively to forcing the Bank to take action to remove them and install the LOG.

[Mick Harford]

6 minutes ago, RamsfanJim said:

We are going back 15 years here (!) but it was RamsTrust that first highlighted concerns with the 3 amigos. Literally on the day they did their press conference we had member digging into their backgrounds and financial records - and highlighted multiple concerns (especially around Murdo Mackay). We got press coverage, and a number of members (myself included) printed and handed out flyers outside the ground to increase fans' awareness on a number of occasions.

Over a few years we exposed more and more details (and complied the dossier mentioned above - which was handed over to Peter Gadsby and the police) - there were a number of responses whcih we asked Jeremy Keith et al in meetings which we minuted and were used in the case against them.

Greg Lake and the RPG did a fantastic job raising the protests to the next level - they put some money in to buy banners / foam hands etc. which had much more impact inside and outside the ground. As mentioned above, RamsTrust could not be seen to be leading those protests as we needed to maintain a relationship with the club to continue our aims (And to continue to question the board). Jeremy Keith personally told me we would be cut off if we promoted protests. We all took part in the protests, but could not be seen to be leading them. 

Peter Gadsby will tell you both were vital - the pressure externally, through the media and particularly pressure on the Co-Op Bank, and fans around the ground protesting both contributed massively to forcing the Bank to take action to remove them and install the LOG.

Did that dossier involve a chip shop owner from Wolverhampton and McKays scheme to buy 'shares' in players and sell them on?

Edited November 1, 2021 by Mick Harford

[Comrade 86]

@RamsfanJim Hi Jim, thanks for the considered replies. I will respond later tonight or before wo tomorrow. Apologies, but work is brutal right now, so in this regard you very much have my sympathy!

[BaaLocks]

47 minutes ago, Red Ram said:

You should read Pride by Ryan Hills. Ramstrust put a comprehensive 100,000 word dossier together which exposed Mackay and Keith to be the dodgy individuals they were. @RamsfanJim was personally involved in putting it together. Credit where it's due...

They also were instigators of the email campaign to Sleightholme that led to him steppng down and, ultimately, provided the first point of fracture. I know that coz I was part of it.

As I've said before, I find it amazing how deep the grudge is some people hold towards RT - you would honestly think they had led a campaign to merge us with Forest the way some people bristle as soon as their name is mentioned.

Edited November 1, 2021 by BaaLocks

[Archied]

25 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

They also were instigators of the email campaign to Sleightholme that led to him steppng down and, ultimately, provided the first point of fracture. I know that coz I was part of it.

As I've said before, I find it amazing how deep the grudge is some people hold towards RT - you would honestly think they had led a campaign to merge us with Forest the way some people bristle as soon as their name is mentioned.

It’s a long time ago so memories are muddled but wasn’t ramstrust treatment of Pickering rather shameful and helped lead to the coop bank and 3 amigos debacle? If I remember rightly there appeared to be some grudges against Pickering being played out

Edited November 1, 2021 by Archied

[RamsfanJim]

16 minutes ago, Archied said:

It’s a long time ago so memories are muddled but wasn’t ramstrust treatment of Pickering rather shameful and helped lead to the coop bank and 3 amigos debacle? If I remember rightly there appeared to be some grudges against Pickering being played out

This was before I joined RamsTrust, but I remember all fans were conflicted at the time. Lionel was clearly a true fan and bankcrupted himself trying to get the club back up, but he made some very poor decisions - and the club was clearly in real trouble at the time (not paying debts). This was why fans called for action - and RamsTrust was formed. It was therefore always going to be difficult to call for change without it being perceived as an attack on Lionel. I'm not aware of any 'grudges' against Lionel, but I know he did have conflicts with some people he had worked with for a long time - which is sad.  

[Ram-Alf]

19 minutes ago, Archied said:

It’s a long time ago so memories are muddled but wasn’t ramstrust treatment of Pickering rather shameful and helped lead to the coop bank and 3 amigos debacle? If I remember rightly there appeared to be some grudges against Pickering being played out

LP had a signed agreement with the Co op that if monies owed by DCFC he would be personly liable, The Co op came calling took the reigns then sold to the 3 chancers for 300pence,  I felt a little sorry for Sleightholme, He got into something that got him deeper into bother.

Who put Keith et al forward?

[RamsfanJim]

1 minute ago, Unlucky Alf said:

LP had a signed agreement with the Co op that if monies owed by DCFC he would be personly liable, The Co op came calling took the reigns then sold to the 3 chancers for 300pence,  I felt a little sorry for Sleightholme, He got into something that got him deeper into bother.

Who put Keith et al forward?

Hmm, Sleightholme should have known better - he should have done his research before getting involved with those characters as they used him as a respectable front man. I don't know whether he personally profited from involvement, or just took the kudos from being a club chairman. He was not charged, so cannot be seen as personally corrupt.

Andrew Mackenzie introduced them - and took a cut of the illegal funds, which is why he was jailed along with Keith & Mackay. I was in Northampton court to see it... ?

[Ram-Alf]

3 minutes ago, RamsfanJim said:

Hmm, Sleightholme should have known better - he should have done his research before getting involved with those characters as they used him as a respectable front man. I don't know whether he personally profited from involvement, or just took the kudos from being a club chairman. He was not charged, so cannot be seen as personally corrupt.

Andrew Mackenzie introduced them - and took a cut of the illegal funds, which is why he was jailed along with Keith & Mackay. I was in Northampton court to see it... ?

I thought Sleightholme was a little wet behind the ears, Niave, Stupid or incorrigible but fell into the role of a Patsy, As for profiting...just expences at most.

That's it Mackenzie all got too little prison time for my liking.

[Yani P]

Dark days those were..

[Archied]

2 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

This was before I joined RamsTrust, but I remember all fans were conflicted at the time. Lionel was clearly a true fan and bankcrupted himself trying to get the club back up, but he made some very poor decisions - and the club was clearly in real trouble at the time (not paying debts). This was why fans called for action - and RamsTrust was formed. It was therefore always going to be difficult to call for change without it being perceived as an attack on Lionel. I'm not aware of any 'grudges' against Lionel, but I know he did have conflicts with some people he had worked with for a long time - which is sad.  

Ah I’m starting to remember more now , I ended up pretty disgusted with ramstrust at the time

[Archied]

2 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

This was before I joined RamsTrust, but I remember all fans were conflicted at the time. Lionel was clearly a true fan and bankcrupted himself trying to get the club back up, but he made some very poor decisions - and the club was clearly in real trouble at the time (not paying debts). This was why fans called for action - and RamsTrust was formed. It was therefore always going to be difficult to call for change without it being perceived as an attack on Lionel. I'm not aware of any 'grudges' against Lionel, but I know he did have conflicts with some people he had worked with for a long time - which is sad.  

Is it .possible to check whether I am listed as a member of ramstrust? 

[Shipley Ram]

2 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

Andrew Mackenzie introduced them - and took a cut of the illegal funds, which is why he was jailed along with Keith & Mackay. I was in Northampton court to see it... 

I know the CPS lawyer who prosecuted them, he says they so deserved prosecution.

[Boycie]

12 minutes ago, Archied said:

Is it .possible to check whether I am listed as a member of ramstrust? 

Surely if you got a share you’re still a shareholder if not a member,

[RamsfanJim]

15 minutes ago, Archied said:

Is it .possible to check whether I am listed as a member of ramstrust? 

Messaged you

[Comrade 86]

7 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

OK - thanks for this, useful input.

I have been in touch with David before with relation to meetings with the club, but not regards membership numbers etc. - similarly I haven't been in touch with any other forum in this respect. I'm not entirely sure it is relevant - message boards / forums are very different to supporter organisations set up to represent their members. David himself told me it is impossible to represent the views of this forum as everyone's views are different.

RamsTrust membership is on a par or higher with most Trusts at similar clubs. Some 'bigger clubs' (Man Utd etc.) obviously have many more members, and some smaller clubs where the Trust is involved in running their clubs have bigger membership (some include Trust membership in buying a season ticket). Obviously we would like membership numbers to be higher, but we have to accept that a number of supporters are never sufficiently motivated to get involved.

Trusts are largely seen as 'protest groups' and only attract interest in times of crisis for their clubs. RamsTrust itself was set up at the end of Lionel Pickering's reign when he ran out of money and the club was in crisis. Although we have continued throughout the following 19 years (doing all the things I have mentioned above), we have only attracted significant interest during times the club has been in trouble. As a result we have had limited interest in joining the Board during much of this time, and it has been left to a few of us to keep the Trust going - knowing that there would be another time we were needed (as now). 

We have never made any particular effort to increase 'followers' - that is up to each individual if they are interested in what we are doing. Obviously the Trust was set up well before Twitter or Facebook so there was never a specific policy. I don't think comparisons with BAWT or any other group is relevant - we are very different organisations with different aims. This is not a competition.

The £2 fee is to buy a share and join the Trust - we have not charged a renewal fee for many years as our costs have reduced considerably now we can communicate electronically rather than physically printing and posting updates / newsletters / AGM invitations to every member. (So it is not £2 every year).

The Trust Board is elected by the members - we have annual elections and each position is for 3 years unless they choose to step down. The 'suitability' of the Directors is therefore up to the members - and dependent on new candidates putting themselves forward to replace existing members if they re-stand. The Officials are then elected each year after the AGM by the new board. I personally have offered to stand down as chair every year - and on 2 occasions over the past 10 years or so I have been replaced, then re-elected the following year. I don't relish this - I want more people to come forward and take on responsibility (it does take a lot of my time for no reward, and generally just criciticism when people disagree).

We also can appoint a limited number of co-optees to the Board for specific skills / experience. We currently have 3 co-optees as shown on the website.

Thanks for this Jim. I think I probably have a different view to the yourself and the board as to the purpose and remit of the Trust. I don't believe it is a competition either. I cited the BAWT figures more out of shock than direct comparison. If you have 'never made any particular effort to increase followers' then my input would not be a lot of use to be honest. My view is simply that the more voices singing as one, the better. Your OP referenced 'increasing membership' hence my response.

Thanks also for the explanation as to the election process and the co-optee appointments.

[Comrade 86]

7 hours ago, RamsfanJim said:

The Trust is NOT a business - we are not trying to make a profit (in fact we are a not-for-profit cooperative), we are a membership organisation with aims as reported by Angie above.

I'm aware that the Trust is not a business. I was suggesting that perhaps it should be run more like a business, but again, I was under the impression that membership growth was a current priority. I did try to be clear on this in both of my earlier posts. Again, my ideas would therefore appear to fly in the face of current RT priorities, so outlining and developing such ideas does not appeal as a useful exercise at this time.

Irrespective, I wish the Trust and it's members every success in achieving their current goals. Ensuring the club is not lost forever in a fugue of EFL red tape and undue sanctions is very much the one current RT aim to which I feel fully aligned and the Trust's attempts to facilitate this outcome are of course both acknowledged  and much appreciated.