Derby finally accept 21 point deduction.

[Sparkle]

I am just trying to keep up to date - 

we have not been charged with any F&P or have I missed it? 
we have an appeal against administration 12 point deduction - which I still believe we have an excellent chance of winning ( probably why EFL don’t want it heard) 

MM indicated that using the perceived EFL amortisation method that we were about £4 million overspent 

is this still all correct? 
 

from my point of view I do not want anymore of the EFL cloak and daggers - follow the actual rules ! - charge us - have the cases heard and let everyone see the accusations and arguments - and give us any punishment in full with full reasons.

if we are to be relegated so be it but we should be playing to our agenda 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Sparkle

[jono]

18 hours ago, Unlucky Alf said:

To be fare, I was as pleased as Punch when Johnson signed at the last minute, He had a great last season with Norwich, But we all know that went south with us from then on.

Bradley was underwhelming I suppose, but I still remember two things .. a wonderful looping pass to Chris Martin which was then headed in, you saw them see each other, devise a plan and it turned in to a goal all in the blink of an eye. Then against United in the cup, at OT when he played like a man possessed. Paid daft wages and daft transfer fee for an ok player, but curiously I remember him fondly, he had a certain character 

[CBRammette]

2 hours ago, Curtains said:

It was tongue in cheek as I know we can’t do that as the EFL have snookered us  because they could delay the takeover.

Having said that I’m still worried about the takeover going forward.

We are in a mess and I just hope these administrators know what they are doing  

In the Wigan case the administrators sounded optimistic from the start didn’t they !

 

Oh good - didnt seem like your usual posts!! Yes it feels dicey - key couple of weeks ahead

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

I am just trying to keep up to date - 

we have not been charged with any F&P or have I missed it? 
we have an appeal against administration 12 point deduction - which I still believe we have an excellent chance of winning ( probably why EFL don’t want it heard) 

MM indicated that using the perceived EFL amortisation method that we were about £4 million overspent 

is this still all correct? 
 

from my point of view I do not want anymore of the EFL clock and daggers - follow the actual rules ! - charge us - have the cases heard and let everyone see the accusations and arguments - and give us any punishment in full with full reasons.

if we are to be relegated so be it but we should be playing to our agenda 

Yes!

As for your clock and daggers

[angieram]

2 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

Our pr has been appalling throughout this whole business and we've let the EFL completely dictate the narrative. 

I can't for the life of me work out what the EFL is for.... 

- it doesn't write good, clear rules

- it doesn't police its rules effectively and reasonably 

- it doesn't negotiate good deals on behalf of its members 

- it doesn't prevent bad things happening to clubs

- it doesn't appear unbiased and puts out shockingly worded and insinuating statements 

It's disgraceful really. It seems to be nothing more than a clique of has-beens in thrall to vested lobby groups. 

The fact that we were represented in one of these and completely failed to move the agenda to our advantage is merely the latest example of rubbish performance by our people. No surprise there then.... ?

I totally agree with your 'assessment ' of the EFL, but I prefer our dignified silence to the way they are behaving.

I am sure what we will eventually hear from the administrators will demonstrate that it wasn't just our former owner who found them overly aggressive and antagonistic.

[Ram-Alf]

5 minutes ago, jono said:

Bradley was underwhelming I suppose, but I still remember two things .. a wonderful looping pass to Chris Martin which was then headed in, you saw them see each other, devise a plan and it turned in to a goal all in the blink of an eye. Then against United in the cup, at OT when he played like a man possessed. Paid daft wages and daft transfer fee for an ok player, but curiously I remember him fondly, he had a certain character 

They showed a goal of his...against Ipswich I think where he got the ball around the halfway line and just powered on and smashed it in from the edge of the box...that was before he kicked a ball for us, Then there was the biting incident against Stoke, For us I concidered him a nearly man...far to inconsistant imo.

[1967RAMS]

32 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

They are not here to act in the clubs best interest, that is not the role of an administrator. 

?

[Sparkle]

4 minutes ago, angieram said:

I totally agree with your 'assessment ' of the EFL, but I prefer our dignified silence to the way they are behaving.

I am sure what we will eventually hear from the administrators will demonstrate that it wasn't just our former owner who found them overly aggressive and antagonistic.

I want truth and honesty and I am seeing none of that which is a disgraceful way for an organisation to behave.

[cosmic]

2 hours ago, rammieib said:

 Being present at Moor Farm that day, what I personally remember is being told that the morale around the place had gone to rock bottom despite being fifth (I think) at the time. MM even referenced the tea lady (whilst not serving David his sausages) was unhappy.

There may be other things I cannot remember but I don’t remember anything specific on gross misconduct.

Im happy to be corrected. 

Thanks for clarifying, rammieib. Yeah I’m not suggesting there was any level of “gross misconduct”, that was another post. I was replying to RoyMac5 who said Clement didn’t get the sack for footballing reasons. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by cosmic

[PistoldPete]

59 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

I am just trying to keep up to date - 

we have not been charged with any F&P or have I missed it? 
we have an appeal against administration 12 point deduction - which I still believe we have an excellent chance of winning ( probably why EFL don’t want it heard) 

MM indicated that using the perceived EFL amortisation method that we were about £4 million overspent 

is this still all correct? 
 

from my point of view I do not want anymore of the EFL cloak and daggers - follow the actual rules ! - charge us - have the cases heard and let everyone see the accusations and arguments - and give us any punishment in full with full reasons.

if we are to be relegated so be it but we should be playing to our agenda 

All correct. Except 4 points was the scale penalty for FFP breaahes up to 2018. Mel was saying they were in talks to try and stop Derby being punished over and over for the same thing. Which i think is in the rules anyway there is meant to be a reset if you break the FFP limits. So I do not see  where 17 point deduction could come from anywhere at all.

 

If you use EFL amortisation method it may actually help us in 2018-19 as we would have made a big loss on Johnson and Butterfield and co in that year. And also using EFL method we made a bigger gain on Vydra and Weimann. 

 

Not that we are bound to use EFL amortisation method anwyay , least of all for 2018-19 as there has been no charge for that year at all.

 

 

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, rammieib said:

 Being present at Moor Farm that day, what I personally remember is being told that the morale around the place had gone to rock bottom despite being fifth (I think) at the time. MM even referenced the tea lady (whilst not serving David his sausages) was unhappy.

There may be other things I cannot remember but I don’t remember anything specific on gross misconduct.

Im happy to be corrected. 

I recall something about Clement chucking the bread new gym equipment in the shed.

Players also didn't buy into his tactics. Can't remember if it was Russell or Bryson who commented on Clement wanting the FBs high up like wingers, AMS drifting out wide and wingers drifting inside. Ironically not too dissimilar to Rooney's tactics ?

Also couldn't help himself when it came to reminiscing over the time he put some cones out for Ronaldo and handed Sergio Ramos a bib.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Ghost of Clough

[JfR]

Where does the EFL's intended 17 points as a punishment come from? From my understanding of the sanctioning guidelines, punishment is only given for the first breach of the financial rules, and then is "reset" for periods following it. This is done specifically to avoid excessive punishments for what is effectively the same offence. If this is accurate, then the 17 points have to apply to only the first P&S upper threshold breach.

Punishment for a financial breach is 12 points, with mitigation dependent on level of breach, such that this punishment can be as low as 3 points for a breach of less than £2m. Additionally, punishment can be mitigated further, or aggravating circumstances can increase the punishment by as many as 9 further points. As such, it would appear that the punishment the EFL are seeking is one of the following:

1. 8 point punishment (breach in region of £10-£12.5m) + full 9 points for aggravating circumstances
2. 9 point punishment (breach in region of £12.5-£15m) + 8 points for aggravating circumstances (I view this as least likely, as if they're asking for 8 points for aggravating circumstances, they may as well ask for 9 points for aggravating circumstances, and I cannot see why they wouldn't do so)
3. full 12 point punishment (breach over £15m) + 5 points for aggravating circumstances

In each of these cases, the breach would have to be higher than that which Morris is quoted as stating was observed in the first P&S breach by, at minimum, £6m (Morris was quoted as stating it would be around £4m, representing a 4 or 5 point punishment). Additionally, in all scenarios the EFL must be asking for an increase of the punishment based on aggravating circumstances, and, in the case of the first scenario, possibly arguing that there is no case for mitigation beyond the size of breach.

[angieram]

Can we please stop speculating about Clement, unless you have evidence to back it up.

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I totally agree with your 'assessment ' of the EFL, but I prefer our dignified silence to the way they are behaving.

I am sure what we will eventually hear from the administrators will demonstrate that it wasn't just our former owner who found them overly aggressive and antagonistic.

When is Ramstrust's next meeting with EFL Angie? I hope you can say, more diplomatically than I ever could , what some Rams fans think of them. 

[angieram]

Just now, PistoldPete said:

When is Ramstrust's next meeting with EFL Angie? I hope you can say, more diplomatically than I ever could , what some Rams fans think of them. 

It's on Wednesday 17th, unless anything happens to postpone. members of RT have already prepared a long list of questions, and I think Jim asked for further ones on here a few days ago (maybe in the Rams Trust thread? Sorry, been away so just catching up). 

I won't be attending but I trust the RT Board to ask the questions they can. Whilst I know they are already doing this, I personally get the impression from what has been minuted so far that the EFL can be pretty evasive and not answer questions directly or allow detailed follow up in the meeting. 

I am sure RT will say what they can about the meeting as soon as they can. Last time, minutes had to be approved by the EFL before they could be shared.  

 

[PistoldPete]

10 minutes ago, JfR said:

Where does the EFL's intended 17 points as a punishment come from? From my understanding of the sanctioning guidelines, punishment is only given for the first breach of the financial rules, and then is "reset" for periods following it. This is done specifically to avoid excessive punishments for what is effectively the same offence. If this is accurate, then the 17 points have to apply to only the first P&S upper threshold breach.

Punishment for a financial breach is 12 points, with mitigation dependent on level of breach, such that this punishment can be as low as 3 points for a breach of less than £2m. Additionally, punishment can be mitigated further, or aggravating circumstances can increase the punishment by as many as 9 further points. As such, it would appear that the punishment the EFL are seeking is one of the following:

1. 8 point punishment (breach in region of £10-£12.5m) + full 9 points for aggravating circumstances
2. 9 point punishment (breach in region of £12.5-£15m) + 8 points for aggravating circumstances (I view this as least likely, as if they're asking for 8 points for aggravating circumstances, they may as well ask for 9 points for aggravating circumstances, and I cannot see why they wouldn't do so)
3. full 12 point punishment (breach over £15m) + 5 points for aggravating circumstances

In each of these cases, the breach would have to be higher than that which Morris is quoted as stating was observed in the first P&S breach by, at minimum, £6m (Morris was quoted as stating it would be around £4m, representing a 4 or 5 point punishment). Additionally, in all scenarios the EFL must be asking for an increase of the punishment based on aggravating circumstances, and, in the case of the first scenario, possibly arguing that there is no case for mitigation beyond the size of breach.

Isn't it a penalty for later years , not just for the period Morris was talking about. In every case, a mitigating factor would surely be that we could have no reason to know we were in breach of FFP. Because the alleged breach of amortisation standard was not something that we could reasonably have known we were doing, per IDC ruling. Retrospectively using a different amortisation method is the only way we could be in breach of FFP. SO there would be bound to be mitigating factors for every year, 

[PistoldPete]

1 hour ago, angieram said:

I totally agree with your 'assessment ' of the EFL, but I prefer our dignified silence to the way they are behaving.

I am sure what we will eventually hear from the administrators will demonstrate that it wasn't just our former owner who found them overly aggressive and antagonistic.

I agree Angie. Van Der Moodhoover is spot on with his assessment of EFL. But they are bullies,  totally abusing their power. How does anyone respond to that? Stand up to them and risk just antagonising them as Morris was accused of doing. Or maintain dignified silence? Either way I think  the result is the same. EFL just do what they want and get away with it. I sincerely hope that all regulatory powers are removed from them and vile characters like Parry and Ridsdale are sacked off. But  it will be too late for Derby.  

[SSD]

I've got to the stage now where I'm not really following much of the EFL punishment news anymore. We all know how farcical this has become. I want to get this mess over and done with and I think the prospective new owner has the same mindset, accept the negative points and lets build a solid plan over the next six to eight months. 

If Rooney wants to commit beyond the season then I'm more than happy, if not I fully understand. He's worked as hard as he can to stop this becoming even more of an embarrassment to the club and the supporters. League One is harder than what I think people realise, Ipswich and Sunderland haven't exactly had swift return up the league. Once the takeover is complete, the time being spent planning next season will give us an advantage. 

I'm tired of it, I dont want to see Nixon keep tweeting about us, spoon feeding drivel to make supporters feel worse. Take the nine point hit, rebuild.

Edited November 14, 2021 by SouthStandDan

[Phoenix]

The big question is, will this thread run to 500 pages?

[hintonsboots]

130 pages into arguably the most important topic in recent times, and Chris Martin is still being mentioned. WTF.