Tactics; Intent and Execution

[brady1993]

3 minutes ago, Andrew3000 said:

Fair enough Brady. It seems that you are reasonably positive that this might begin to work? If right, you've done well to discern any pattern out of the mess.

I don't think we are too far away from it working, especially if Rooney gets the signings over the line he clearly wants to. Whether it's the best plan we could be doing is a whole different question. I think it has merit and better thought out that would you could see at a glance (and a damn sight better tactically served up last season). But it's success long term hinges on the three behind the striker and Lawrence in particular producing more than he has done which isn't the gamble I'd have personally made.

[DCFC Kicks]

1 hour ago, Rammeister said:

Can you do an executive summary please?

[brady1993]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

4-4-2 will do it.

I mean I'm sure your ponderings kept you from being bored, but seriously you've not even got your boy scouts 'football manager' badge sown on yet. ?

I'll have you know I've Derby County as the champions on at least one version of Football Manager such is my prowess. ?

In all seriousness this was mostly about getting things out of my head and I have fun writing and thinking about these things from time to time. If you think I'm overcomplicating it, far enough. I feel like this stuff is there but I completely get people not being into it.

[brady1993]

19 minutes ago, Dean (hick) Saunders said:

Agree that Bird and Shinnie does not work. Needs to be either or..

Be tempted to try Ravel in RHS DM role with Hutchinson in LAM place.

It's not really about Bird and Shinnie not working. It's more about Shinnie not being able to do the role required of him in this new style of play.

Ravel at DM might work and is an option after-all Rooney and Bird were a successful partnership in the second half of 19/20 and Morrison has more defensively than Rooney did. I think if you did that I'd probably want to bring in Watson in that LAM spot.

[hintonsboots]

@brady1993. Thanks for your post mate, very interesting read.

Can you shed any light on Davies taking the goal kicks ?

[RoyMac5]

5 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I'll have you know I've Derby County as the champions on at least one version of Football Manager such is my prowess. ?

In all seriousness this was mostly about getting things out of my head and I have fun writing and thinking about these things from time to time. If you think I'm overcomplicating it, far enough. I feel like this stuff is there but I completely get people not being into it.

It's just too much for me mate. I don't want to be any ruder than I have been, so as long as you're having fun it's all good. ? #COYR

[brady1993]

5 minutes ago, hintonsboots said:

@brady1993. Thanks for your post mate, very interesting read.

Can you shed any light on Davies taking the goal kicks ?

I think it's a combination of a couple things; encouraging the opposition to press and therefore get out of position and being more confident in Roos having the ball under pressure than Davies. In theory you'd expect one or two players to not be able to resist trying to press the keeper in that situation and so if Roos finds a white shirt that's one or two players effectively out of of the game. 

[brady1993]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

It's just too much for me mate. I don't want to be any ruder than I have been, so as long as you're having fun it's all good. ? #COYR

Yeah fair enough. I didn't particular read you as being rude, more just poking a bit of fun so don't worry on that front.

Also you should be defending me because you could read all of this as a defence of Rooney's tactics ?.

[San Fran Van Rams]

Great OP. 

Does seem concerning that we're reliant on Shinnie currently. Be interesting to see if tomorrows developments mean we bring in someone else as it'll cement what you say.

Have you got any insights into how this is countered and what our plan B is? Are there tweeks to this set up which are easy to implement but are difficult to match up too?

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Yeah fair enough. I didn't particular read you as being rude, more just poking a bit of fun so don't worry on that front.

Also you should be defending me because you could read all of this as a defence of Rooney's tactics ?.

Oh bugger! Really? I fell asleep part way through - where were the pictures? Nah, it's not that I think you're wrong or right, just 'how the duck do you know'! ? Lol. I suppose we all do the same, just not quite so 'war & peace' size stylee. #COYR

I'll be interested to see whether we stick with Shinnie and Bird, they don't work but what to do? For me it would be change formation, but what do I know. See Martin scored tonight for Pearson playing 4-2-3-1 - it's not right! ?

[Van der MoodHoover]

Seems to me that we're trying to execute a free flowing, interchangeable formation, built around a single central focal point. 

I call it "the maypole" formation.... ?

 

[LeedsCityRam]

2 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I'm writing this because I've been thinking about it for a little while and I feel that I keep see people misdiagnosing what we are trying to do and why it's not working. (Also because I'm a bit bored whilst a bit ill). This isn't necessarily an attempt to defend what we are trying to do or whether it's the best approach to take (although I do think there is merit) but more an attempt at explaining the tactical intent and why we aren't meeting that intent or at least not consistently. It's worth noting there is an amount of variation in what we have tried to do but I'll try to cover the gist of it and where and why it's varied a little.

The Intent

The primary goal of what Rooney is trying to tactically work towards is aiming to create a chasm of space in midfield in front of the opposition defence for the 3 attacking midfielders (Lawrence particularly) to exploit, with the secondary goal of if that doesn't work having an overload out wide. We do this by working the ball out from the back and having players drift from their starting positions into space we manufacture in turn creating more space where we want it. With that in mind we can look at the player's roles.

GK, CBs - Not much to really explain here and they aren't doing anything fancy. The important bit is that we expect the ball to move around between them a lot and so need to be comfortable on the ball and able to shift possession quickly and accurately. Also the centre backs may be called upon to cover the space wide that the full backs vacate so in an ideal world are positional aware and quick.

Fullbacks - Almost used as wing backs the idea is that when we are building possession they push very high and wide. This is to achieve a couple things; provide width, give an out-ball for CBs and GK or a switch ball for a midfielder and push the opposition wide players back and out of the way contributing to space opening up where you'd typically see the fullback. There has been a minor variant on this with one of the full backs playing high but narrow acting as a pseudo-midfielder with the attacking player in front of them providing the width.

DMs - With the space vacated by the full back the DM on the side possession is moving towards can freely move into that pocket of space hopefully dragging their opposite number out of position and if they aren't tracked they will have time and space to pick a pass. The idea is goes quickly into them and the quickly on either into the 10 or to a wide player on their side. By doing this it contributes to trying to moving the opposition around, get them out of position and ideally out of those central areas which brings me on to the next group.

AMs - This whole tactical system is designed to give these players a platform to play, with the movement of the fullbacks and the DMs the AMs should find it a lot easier (if the ball has been moved quickly) to find time and space in the centre of the park where they can turn and hurt the opposing team. My belief is that there is three nominal roles the left sided player operates as a wideish playmaker, the right sided player operates as the most direct of the three looking to run at the opposition or in behind and the central player is to be somewhat in between both whilst also being the primary target for most of the build up, possession and I suspect the player wanted to be on the ultimate end of the move. You'll notice that there is a big emphasis on getting the 10 on the ball as much as possible. Typically the wider players are inverted so they are more comfortable coming narrow.

CF - Unlike a lot of tactical set ups, the striker isn't here primarily as the focus of things and more as almost a decoy. The idea is they consistently make runs beyond dragging the opposition back and have them back peddling when an AM breaks into the space in front of them. The importance once again is all about disrupting how the opposition set up in order to create space.

Ideally in the build up you'd expect us to look like this (assuming an attack on the right)

 

      

 

And if you look at in that regard I believe you can start to see how we expect to create passing triangles in order to work possession. It then shifts to something closer to this further up the pitch (again assuming an attack on the right)

 

(Diagrams aren't perfect but I hope they get the point across)

The Execution

Whilst the above is the intent we often see it breakdown well before the final third giving the impression that we aren't going anywhere and it's partly we see some players end up consistently coming very deep. What's basically happening is to an extent we aren't able to execute what we are trying to do tactically and forever recycling the initial phase of it. The problem is rife throughout the team and there are a lot of players out there who are clearly unsuited to doing what is asked causing severe breaks in the tactical cohesion. 

• GK
  • Roos is actually perfect for the role in terms of his attributes. Whilst he may have his moments; at this level his distribution is excellent and he is fast off his line if somebody breaks beyond the defence.
• CBs
  • Admittedly this feels a touch unfair to criticise and in fairness they've made about as a good a fist of it as can be expected but fundamentally we need CBs much more comfortable on the ball the Davies and Stearman if we want to build out from the back.
  • Jagielka coming in will help this mind and if we can pick up Mengi as well we will be golden.
• Fullbacks
  •  Forsyth just isn't really quick enough anymore to properly stretch the pitch and then return to position, Buchanan returning will improve this but I think we need start seriously considering bumping Williams up to second choice.
  • Byrne whilst he has made mistakes is probably ok in the role with a couple caveats; ideally we'd have someone a little faster and more capable of drilling the ball into the box (as opposed to Byrne's floaters). Ebosele would fix some of the issues but is a little rawer in possession than Byrne.
  • Also whilst Byrne is fine with the primary role, he is clearly supremely uncomfortable playing as an inverted full back as we saw against Peterborough.
• DMs
  • Bird tactically and positionally completely gets what he should be doing and whilst it might look odd is following the plan set out for him to a T.  The ball comes into and back out from him quickly and reliably. The only minor problem is because of the position he is taking up the quick forwards pass is typically on his wrong foot  and he'd be far better off if he was playing on the left half of the pitch.
  • Shinnie however is arguably one of the biggest issues in the current set up and blatantly unsuited for it. Tactical he looks unsure of his role and the number of times that one of the following happens when he gets the ball is significant; the momentum of the move is killed dead because he takes too many touches, he gives up possession or he passes in a such a way that the next player does. As much as he is liked if Rooney wants to tactically make work what he's trying to do, Shinnie has to come out of the side.
• AMs
  • The system has been built with Lawrence playing at 10 in mind and whilst he hasn't perhaps pulled up any trees he does seem to tactically understand what his role and what he should be doing at a given time. Need a bit more creatively from him and I think we will see that once other things click into place.
  • Morrison somewhat similar to Lawrence I feel was firmly in the coaching team's mind when thinking on how they want to play this season and does his role well
  • The problem position is the RAM slot. The plan very clearly was to get Aluko in here. Jozwiak and Ebosele have started here but neither are really right for both being right footed and given that Byrne behind them can't play the compensatory role. The player very clearly most suited to it is Sibley but it's just a question of whether Rooney gets over his hangups with him as he looked like a clear fit when he came on versus Peterborough.
• CF
  • This is also where there has been a bit of a problem. I really like CKR but this system needs someone energetic and spinning in behind to open up the space and keep the opposition honest and it's just not his game. It wasn't surprising to me that the game seemed to change when he got injured and Stretton came on because suddenly spaces started to appear.
  • I'm relatively convinced Baldock was being brought in with this in mind and was going to be earmarked as first choice. Personally however I think Stretton looks a better fit and I suspect is more likely to be clinical when it comes to chance creation. 

Whilst it might not look great now with perhaps a couple signings/players returning to fitness it could quickly click into place, it's just down to Rooney and Co to realise why it's not working and fix it. For example a theoretical line up along the lines of the following would likely execute the plan set out pretty well 

Superb ?

I guess the obvious question is why Shinnie continues to start. Was convinced Morrison would drop deeper alongside Bird after Salford...really interested to see the team for tomorrow. Maybe Rooney thinks Ravel is needed up the park & Shinnie's spot is being earmarked for Liam Thompson or Hutchinson long term (he & Bird would seem lightweight at DM though)

Good points also re Baldock/Stretton...love Kazim to bits but that system needs fluidity up top.

P.s. get well soon ?

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, San Fran Van Rams said:

Great OP. 

Does seem concerning that we're reliant on Shinnie currently. Be interesting to see if tomorrows developments mean we bring in someone else as it'll cement what you say.

Have you got any insights into how this is countered and what our plan B is? Are there tweeks to this set up which are easy to implement but are difficult to match up too?

Thing is when it comes to Shinnie we didn't have much other option and it perhaps was as apparent that he was unsuited to the role until the season started. Perhaps the thought was his positives outweighed the tactical baggage. But we were/are looking at other midfielders in Carroll and Garner.

In terms of stopping it you'd have to see it working properly before you could say definitavely but it most likely involves single out the weak links. Like right now it's pretty easy as there multiple points of likely failure. In terms of a plan B I've not seen much in the way of that thinking because the effort has been getting plan A going. It likely involved CKR before injury.

[DCFC1388]

3 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I'm writing this because I've been thinking about it for a little while and I feel that I keep see people misdiagnosing what we are trying to do and why it's not working. (Also because I'm a bit bored whilst a bit ill). This isn't necessarily an attempt to defend what we are trying to do or whether it's the best approach to take (although I do think there is merit) but more an attempt at explaining the tactical intent and why we aren't meeting that intent or at least not consistently. It's worth noting there is an amount of variation in what we have tried to do but I'll try to cover the gist of it and where and why it's varied a little.

The Intent

The primary goal of what Rooney is trying to tactically work towards is aiming to create a chasm of space in midfield in front of the opposition defence for the 3 attacking midfielders (Lawrence particularly) to exploit, with the secondary goal of if that doesn't work having an overload out wide. We do this by working the ball out from the back and having players drift from their starting positions into space we manufacture in turn creating more space where we want it. With that in mind we can look at the player's roles.

GK, CBs - Not much to really explain here and they aren't doing anything fancy. The important bit is that we expect the ball to move around between them a lot and so need to be comfortable on the ball and able to shift possession quickly and accurately. Also the centre backs may be called upon to cover the space wide that the full backs vacate so in an ideal world are positional aware and quick.

Fullbacks - Almost used as wing backs the idea is that when we are building possession they push very high and wide. This is to achieve a couple things; provide width, give an out-ball for CBs and GK or a switch ball for a midfielder and push the opposition wide players back and out of the way contributing to space opening up where you'd typically see the fullback. There has been a minor variant on this with one of the full backs playing high but narrow acting as a pseudo-midfielder with the attacking player in front of them providing the width.

DMs - With the space vacated by the full back the DM on the side possession is moving towards can freely move into that pocket of space hopefully dragging their opposite number out of position and if they aren't tracked they will have time and space to pick a pass. The idea is goes quickly into them and the quickly on either into the 10 or to a wide player on their side. By doing this it contributes to trying to moving the opposition around, get them out of position and ideally out of those central areas which brings me on to the next group.

AMs - This whole tactical system is designed to give these players a platform to play, with the movement of the fullbacks and the DMs the AMs should find it a lot easier (if the ball has been moved quickly) to find time and space in the centre of the park where they can turn and hurt the opposing team. My belief is that there is three nominal roles the left sided player operates as a wideish playmaker, the right sided player operates as the most direct of the three looking to run at the opposition or in behind and the central player is to be somewhat in between both whilst also being the primary target for most of the build up, possession and I suspect the player wanted to be on the ultimate end of the move. You'll notice that there is a big emphasis on getting the 10 on the ball as much as possible. Typically the wider players are inverted so they are more comfortable coming narrow.

CF - Unlike a lot of tactical set ups, the striker isn't here primarily as the focus of things and more as almost a decoy. The idea is they consistently make runs beyond dragging the opposition back and have them back peddling when an AM breaks into the space in front of them. The importance once again is all about disrupting how the opposition set up in order to create space.

Ideally in the build up you'd expect us to look like this (assuming an attack on the right)

 

      

 

And if you look at in that regard I believe you can start to see how we expect to create passing triangles in order to work possession. It then shifts to something closer to this further up the pitch (again assuming an attack on the right)

 

(Diagrams aren't perfect but I hope they get the point across)

The Execution

Whilst the above is the intent we often see it breakdown well before the final third giving the impression that we aren't going anywhere and it's partly we see some players end up consistently coming very deep. What's basically happening is to an extent we aren't able to execute what we are trying to do tactically and forever recycling the initial phase of it. The problem is rife throughout the team and there are a lot of players out there who are clearly unsuited to doing what is asked causing severe breaks in the tactical cohesion. 

• GK
  • Roos is actually perfect for the role in terms of his attributes. Whilst he may have his moments; at this level his distribution is excellent and he is fast off his line if somebody breaks beyond the defence.
• CBs
  • Admittedly this feels a touch unfair to criticise and in fairness they've made about as a good a fist of it as can be expected but fundamentally we need CBs much more comfortable on the ball the Davies and Stearman if we want to build out from the back.
  • Jagielka coming in will help this mind and if we can pick up Mengi as well we will be golden.
• Fullbacks
  •  Forsyth just isn't really quick enough anymore to properly stretch the pitch and then return to position, Buchanan returning will improve this but I think we need start seriously considering bumping Williams up to second choice.
  • Byrne whilst he has made mistakes is probably ok in the role with a couple caveats; ideally we'd have someone a little faster and more capable of drilling the ball into the box (as opposed to Byrne's floaters). Ebosele would fix some of the issues but is a little rawer in possession than Byrne.
  • Also whilst Byrne is fine with the primary role, he is clearly supremely uncomfortable playing as an inverted full back as we saw against Peterborough.
• DMs
  • Bird tactically and positionally completely gets what he should be doing and whilst it might look odd is following the plan set out for him to a T.  The ball comes into and back out from him quickly and reliably. The only minor problem is because of the position he is taking up the quick forwards pass is typically on his wrong foot  and he'd be far better off if he was playing on the left half of the pitch.
  • Shinnie however is arguably one of the biggest issues in the current set up and blatantly unsuited for it. Tactical he looks unsure of his role and the number of times that one of the following happens when he gets the ball is significant; the momentum of the move is killed dead because he takes too many touches, he gives up possession or he passes in a such a way that the next player does. As much as he is liked if Rooney wants to tactically make work what he's trying to do, Shinnie has to come out of the side.
• AMs
  • The system has been built with Lawrence playing at 10 in mind and whilst he hasn't perhaps pulled up any trees he does seem to tactically understand what his role and what he should be doing at a given time. Need a bit more creatively from him and I think we will see that once other things click into place.
  • Morrison somewhat similar to Lawrence I feel was firmly in the coaching team's mind when thinking on how they want to play this season and does his role well
  • The problem position is the RAM slot. The plan very clearly was to get Aluko in here. Jozwiak and Ebosele have started here but neither are really right for both being right footed and given that Byrne behind them can't play the compensatory role. The player very clearly most suited to it is Sibley but it's just a question of whether Rooney gets over his hangups with him as he looked like a clear fit when he came on versus Peterborough.
• CF
  • This is also where there has been a bit of a problem. I really like CKR but this system needs someone energetic and spinning in behind to open up the space and keep the opposition honest and it's just not his game. It wasn't surprising to me that the game seemed to change when he got injured and Stretton came on because suddenly spaces started to appear.
  • I'm relatively convinced Baldock was being brought in with this in mind and was going to be earmarked as first choice. Personally however I think Stretton looks a better fit and I suspect is more likely to be clinical when it comes to chance creation. 

Whilst it might not look great now with perhaps a couple signings/players returning to fitness it could quickly click into place, it's just down to Rooney and Co to realise why it's not working and fix it. For example a theoretical line up along the lines of the following would likely execute the plan set out pretty well 

Absolutely brilliant post mate, very easy for people to right off Rooneys tactics early doors but I have seen since preseason what he has been trying to do & when we move the ball quickly we execute it really well. 

Spot on with a 'runner' up front, means their defenders need to drop deeper creating space for the AM. Baldock & Stretton will do this well, although I feel like someone with more physicality as well as the pace to run in behind would be better as we can mix our game up more. Someone in the Diedhiou/Davis/Niasse/Delap mould.

Agree that Bird being on the right means he is on the wrong side, Watson played the role really well vs Salford & was always looking forward to play passes between the lines. Feel like we need 1x right footer & 1x left footer in DM to make it work, much better balance. Be interesting to see how Knight fits into it all as he doesnt fit the AM positions imo, he could do with DM role well with his energy but his defensive work would need some working on.

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Superb ?

I guess the obvious question is why Shinnie continues to start. Was convinced Morrison would drop deeper alongside Bird after Salford...really interested to see the team for tomorrow. Maybe Rooney thinks Ravel is needed up the park & Shinnie's spot is being earmarked for Liam Thompson or Hutchinson long term (he & Bird would seem lightweight at DM though)

Good points also re Baldock/Stretton...love Kazim to bits but that system needs fluidity up top.

P.s. get well soon ?

In terms of Shinnie I suspect it's a combination of not expecting him to be as flawed as he in what is being asked, little squad depth, feeling that putting one of the youngsters is too big a risk and wanting Morrison further up field. It's worth noting that Rooney tends to be fairly risk averse especially when it comes to perceived defensive solidity and so he might be willing to take the hit on cohesion. It's the one area that I do wonder whether it's been acknowledged as a problem or not, I suspect it has because we do seem to be looking for another midfielder.

[Chris_Martin]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Superb ?

I guess the obvious question is why Shinnie continues to start. Was convinced Morrison would drop deeper alongside Bird after Salford...

it was against Salford of League 2.

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

If you think I'm overcomplicating it, fair enough.

Irony is, Rooney accused Cocu of over complicating a simple game !

You’ve highlighted one problem, ie Rooney doesn’t know if he will ultimately have a squad that can do this well enough. 
Another problem is :  the championship is full of war weary managers who will very quickly work out how best to deal with this system. When they do, will we know how to adapt/respond?  

[Chris_Martin]

3 hours ago, DCFC Kicks said:

that's some curl you've got on the ball there? 

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, DCFC1388 said:

Absolutely brilliant post mate, very easy for people to right off Rooneys tactics early doors but I have seen since preseason what he has been trying to do & when we move the ball quickly we execute it really well. 

Spot on with a 'runner' up front, means their defenders need to drop deeper creating space for the AM. Baldock & Stretton will do this well, although I feel like someone with more physicality as well as the pace to run in behind would be better as we can mix our game up more. Someone in the Diedhiou/Davis/Niasse/Delap mould.

Agree that Bird being on the right means he is on the wrong side, Watson played the role really well vs Salford & was always looking forward to play passes between the lines. Feel like we need 1x right footer & 1x left footer in DM to make it work, much better balance. Be interesting to see how Knight fits into it all as he doesnt fit the AM positions imo, he could do with DM role well with his energy but his defensive work would need some working on.

Whilst I think there could be something to what Rooney is trying to do, ultimately the proof will be in the pudding. I think the ideas are sound but whether it's the best thing to do and whether we actually complete the picture is a different question.

You are right when it comes to strikers. To be honest I think Stretton looks like he does have an amount of robustness to him albeit not physically dominant just yet but I could see him growing into it more.

I agree with you regarding having a left footer and right footer at DM especially with the positions they are drifting into right now. With Knight I think there is a risk that with this system he is the odd one out as he isn't really suited to any of the positions in it the thing he lacks in that DM role is the tactical nous to pick up the right position and the ability to move the quickly and accurately from those deep positions.

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

Irony is, Rooney accused Cocu of over complicating a simple game !

You’ve highlighted one problem, ie Rooney doesn’t know if he will ultimately have a squad that can do this well enough. 
Another problem is :  the championship is full of war weary managers who will very quickly work out how best to deal with this system. When they do, will we know how to adapt/respond?  

Oh that thought crossed my mind as well regarding the complexity of tactics on display. 

It's a fair criticism about not getting the right players but I'm not especially worried about other managers cracking it as a system if we get the right players in.