Tactics; Intent and Execution

[MickD]

7 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Superb ?

I guess the obvious question is why Shinnie continues to start. Was convinced Morrison would drop deeper alongside Bird after Salford...really interested to see the team for tomorrow. Maybe Rooney thinks Ravel is needed up the park & Shinnie's spot is being earmarked for Liam Thompson or Hutchinson long term (he & Bird would seem lightweight at DM though)

Good points also re Baldock/Stretton...love Kazim to bits but that system needs fluidity up top.

P.s. get well soon ?

Player of the season= Kiss of death

[kevinhectoring]

7 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I'm not especially worried about other managers cracking it as a system if we get the right players in. 

Really hope you’re right. I can see that if you’re Man City with the best of the world you can play your own system and bet on yourself to prevail. So long as you’ve bought the right players. It’s a bit different for us esp if key players get injured. It will also be interesting to see how the stronger teams respond after they have watched us doing this for a while 

[Sparkle]

31 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Really hope you’re right. I can see that if you’re Man City with the best of the world you can play your own system and bet on yourself to prevail. So long as you’ve bought the right players. It’s a bit different for us esp if key players get injured. It will also be interesting to see how the stronger teams respond after they have watched us doing this for a while 

When you are Man City then money and financial losses are an irrelevance - sad but true

[IlsonDerby]

I enjoyed the post. Found myself agreeing with a majority of it. 
 

Unfortunately even though I really like him as a player - Shinnie was the one I’d highlighted Saturday as not doing what the management wanted them to be doing. 
 

Would be quite happy seeing Hutchinson or Watson brought in with Sibley starting on the right. 
 

[Grumpy Git]

When I saw the title of your post, my first thought was that capital punishment is a bit harsh for losing a lead in both games .........

You could be on to something though!

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, kevinhectoring said:

Really hope you’re right. I can see that if you’re Man City with the best of the world you can play your own system and bet on yourself to prevail. So long as you’ve bought the right players. It’s a bit different for us esp if key players get injured. It will also be interesting to see how the stronger teams respond after they have watched us doing this for a while 

Yeah what I kind of meant it is that if the right players are in the system then as a system it won't be trivial to stop. Could a team figure something out to shut it down? Sure but I always thing shutting a team down is a lot harder to do than people think if the team is performing as expected. How it will break apart is by how most do by opposition either targeting weak links or trying to deny strengths but that's the same not matter the tactics.

[Ramarena]

This is an interesting summary and I get where you’re coming from, however there are big issues.

In the Champ a number of managers don’t have the luxury of enforcing a specific tactic and finding players to fit it. We are forcing a very specific system upon players that are clearly uncomfortable with it, and it shows on the field. There are changes that can be made to the current playing staff to ease the issues, but we can’t bring in players with specific attributes to suit due to finances and embargo.

For me finding a system(s) that extracts the most out of the players available is a must and is what the successful managers in this division do, look at what happened to Pearson when he tried to enforce a rigid structure upon players who either weren’t willing or able……..and he had more talent to play with!

The league we play in is also an issue. This tactic is much better suited to the Prem and European sides where space and pressure aren’t as intense, not the battle ground of the Championship. We don’t play games in spelndid isolation and the opposition will exploit this system, hitting us hard when players are out of position whilst maintaining their own shape.

I can’t see it working and finding something that works for the players we have is a must.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ramarena

[samwcave]

This fella knows more about Wayne’s tactics than Wayne knows about wayne’s tactics 

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, Ramarena said:

This is an interesting summary and I get where you’re coming from, however there are big issues.

In the Champ a number of managers don’t have the luxury of enforcing a specific tactic and finding players to fit it. We are forcing a very specific system upon players that are clearly uncomfortable with it, and it shows on the field. There are changes that can be made to the current playing staff to ease the issues, but we can’t bring in players with specific attributes to suit due to finances and embargo.

For me finding a system(s) that extracts the most out of the players available is a must and is what the successful managers in this division do, look at what happened to Pearson when he tried to enforce a rigid structure upon players who either weren’t willing or able……..and he had more talent to play with!

The league we play in is also an issue. This tactic is much better suited to the Prem and European sides where space and pressure aren’t as intense, not the battle ground of the Championship. We don’t play games in spelndid isolation and the opposition will exploit this system, hitting us hard when players are out of position whilst maintaining their own shape.

I can’t see it working and finding something that works for the players we have is a must.

Actually I think you are a little wrong in terms of recruitment and playing staff we are close to fulfilling what we need for these tactics. Rooney has made the assumption I think that he can get the free agents and possible one or two loans, I don't think that was an unreasonable gamble and has built a tactical plan with them in mind. Now this could backfire horribly but that could have been the case regardless, we have gaps and they need filling ignoring the system. Pearson was a completely different example and even if this season goes wrong I don't think it's a comparable example. 

In terms of it being wrong for the championship I do disagree there. It's a system designed to try to create time and space for players and pull the opposition out of position. It honestly will probably work better in this division than above because players are far more likely to get overzealous and chase the ball out of position. It will only be exploitable if the wrong type of players are in post.

[Jram]

I think this system worked miles better tonight with Sibley and Joz playing alongside Morrison 

Not slagging off Lawrence but him and Morrison together play soooo deep

Loathe to get too excited after winning 1-0 but we created some really good openings and every player player well. Don’t even remember getting away with any mistakes really other than maybe one Roos clearance 

[minesahartington]

It appears you can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.. well done wazzer!

[kevinhectoring]

11 minutes ago, Jram said:

I think this system worked miles better tonight with Sibley and Joz playing alongside Morrison 

Not slagging off Lawrence but him and Morrison together play soooo deep

Loathe to get too excited after winning 1-0 but we created some really good openings and every player player well. Don’t even remember getting away with any mistakes really other than maybe one Roos clearance 

Point is, we played with fluency tonight. CRK holds the ball up as well as Shearer but does not often link well and often not quickly.  Lawrence‘s talent is undeniable but he is so often a lone wolf. And they are surrounded by players who want quick ball on the move, but who instead receive it when they are static. Joz so much better tonight when things were more dynamic. Rooney has a problem when Lawrence is available 

[BramcoteRam84]

Still think Morrison and Bird or Knight and Bird in the two is the way forward until Bielik is back. Shinnie is the weak link. If Lawrence is fit on Saturday I’d drop Shinnie and play Morrison alongside Bird, Lawrence Sibley and Joz, especially given we’re at home

[brady1993]

15 hours ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Still think Morrison and Bird or Knight and Bird in the two is the way forward until Bielik is back. Shinnie is the weak link. If Lawrence is fit on Saturday I’d drop Shinnie and play Morrison alongside Bird, Lawrence Sibley and Joz, especially given we’re at home

I completely agree he's the weak link and teams are probably going to quickly click on to it (as I think they did back in January). Last night it was better because we shifted tactically a bit more to bypass Shinnie and a bit more to get Bird on the ball in central areas. The issue with shifting Morrison back is that he looks the best suited to doing what we want in that 10 role and I worry that Knight might shows some of the issues playing there that Shinnie does albeit less so. Bielik will be perfect when fit and I suspect if Rooney gets his way we bring in Garner from Man Utd to fill that role on a temp basis.

[BramcoteRam84]

5 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I completely agree he's the weak link and teams are probably going to quickly click on to it (as I think they did back in January). Last night it was better because we shifted tactically a bit more to bypass Shinnie and a bit more to get Bird on the ball in central areas. The issue with shifting Morrison back is that he looks the best suited to doing what we want in that 10 role and I worry that Knight might shows some of the issues playing there that Shinnie does albeit less so. Bielik will be perfect when fit and I suspect if Rooney gets his way we bring in Garner from Man Utd to fill that role on a temp basis.

Knight is probably best in a midfield three where he can be true box to box. But I think his passing is underrated. We have options when everyone is back and if we could get Garner in then it looks really exciting.

[brady1993]

Just now, BramcoteRam84 said:

Knight is probably best in a midfield three where he can be true box to box. But I think his passing is underrated. We have options when everyone is back and if we could get Garner in then it looks really exciting.

Yeah Knight is basically tailor made for playing in a true three man midfield. To be honest it's not his passing as such I'd be concerned over for the role in a 2, it's more he has a proclivity for going chasing the ball and I'm not convinced he does well at offering for possession in deep areas. He's young enough and talented enough that it could work though. Garner I think would help a fair bit, just a case of having some more restrictions lifted on us I imagine. 

[Truckle]

On 17/08/2021 at 18:54, brady1993 said:

I'm writing this because I've been thinking about it for a little while and I feel that I keep see people misdiagnosing what we are trying to do and why it's not working. (Also because I'm a bit bored whilst a bit ill). This isn't necessarily an attempt to defend what we are trying to do or whether it's the best approach to take (although I do think there is merit) but more an attempt at explaining the tactical intent and why we aren't meeting that intent or at least not consistently. It's worth noting there is an amount of variation in what we have tried to do but I'll try to cover the gist of it and where and why it's varied a little.

The Intent

The primary goal of what Rooney is trying to tactically work towards is aiming to create a chasm of space in midfield in front of the opposition defence for the 3 attacking midfielders (Lawrence particularly) to exploit, with the secondary goal of if that doesn't work having an overload out wide. We do this by working the ball out from the back and having players drift from their starting positions into space we manufacture in turn creating more space where we want it. With that in mind we can look at the player's roles.

GK, CBs - Not much to really explain here and they aren't doing anything fancy. The important bit is that we expect the ball to move around between them a lot and so need to be comfortable on the ball and able to shift possession quickly and accurately. Also the centre backs may be called upon to cover the space wide that the full backs vacate so in an ideal world are positional aware and quick.

Fullbacks - Almost used as wing backs the idea is that when we are building possession they push very high and wide. This is to achieve a couple things; provide width, give an out-ball for CBs and GK or a switch ball for a midfielder and push the opposition wide players back and out of the way contributing to space opening up where you'd typically see the fullback. There has been a minor variant on this with one of the full backs playing high but narrow acting as a pseudo-midfielder with the attacking player in front of them providing the width.

DMs - With the space vacated by the full back the DM on the side possession is moving towards can freely move into that pocket of space hopefully dragging their opposite number out of position and if they aren't tracked they will have time and space to pick a pass. The idea is goes quickly into them and the quickly on either into the 10 or to a wide player on their side. By doing this it contributes to trying to moving the opposition around, get them out of position and ideally out of those central areas which brings me on to the next group.

AMs - This whole tactical system is designed to give these players a platform to play, with the movement of the fullbacks and the DMs the AMs should find it a lot easier (if the ball has been moved quickly) to find time and space in the centre of the park where they can turn and hurt the opposing team. My belief is that there is three nominal roles the left sided player operates as a wideish playmaker, the right sided player operates as the most direct of the three looking to run at the opposition or in behind and the central player is to be somewhat in between both whilst also being the primary target for most of the build up, possession and I suspect the player wanted to be on the ultimate end of the move. You'll notice that there is a big emphasis on getting the 10 on the ball as much as possible. Typically the wider players are inverted so they are more comfortable coming narrow.

CF - Unlike a lot of tactical set ups, the striker isn't here primarily as the focus of things and more as almost a decoy. The idea is they consistently make runs beyond dragging the opposition back and have them back peddling when an AM breaks into the space in front of them. The importance once again is all about disrupting how the opposition set up in order to create space.

Ideally in the build up you'd expect us to look like this (assuming an attack on the right)

 

      

 

And if you look at in that regard I believe you can start to see how we expect to create passing triangles in order to work possession. It then shifts to something closer to this further up the pitch (again assuming an attack on the right)

 

(Diagrams aren't perfect but I hope they get the point across)

The Execution

Whilst the above is the intent we often see it breakdown well before the final third giving the impression that we aren't going anywhere and it's partly we see some players end up consistently coming very deep. What's basically happening is to an extent we aren't able to execute what we are trying to do tactically and forever recycling the initial phase of it. The problem is rife throughout the team and there are a lot of players out there who are clearly unsuited to doing what is asked causing severe breaks in the tactical cohesion. 

• GK
  • Roos is actually perfect for the role in terms of his attributes. Whilst he may have his moments; at this level his distribution is excellent and he is fast off his line if somebody breaks beyond the defence.
• CBs
  • Admittedly this feels a touch unfair to criticise and in fairness they've made about as a good a fist of it as can be expected but fundamentally we need CBs much more comfortable on the ball the Davies and Stearman if we want to build out from the back.
  • Jagielka coming in will help this mind and if we can pick up Mengi as well we will be golden.
• Fullbacks
  •  Forsyth just isn't really quick enough anymore to properly stretch the pitch and then return to position, Buchanan returning will improve this but I think we need start seriously considering bumping Williams up to second choice.
  • Byrne whilst he has made mistakes is probably ok in the role with a couple caveats; ideally we'd have someone a little faster and more capable of drilling the ball into the box (as opposed to Byrne's floaters). Ebosele would fix some of the issues but is a little rawer in possession than Byrne.
  • Also whilst Byrne is fine with the primary role, he is clearly supremely uncomfortable playing as an inverted full back as we saw against Peterborough.
• DMs
  • Bird tactically and positionally completely gets what he should be doing and whilst it might look odd is following the plan set out for him to a T.  The ball comes into and back out from him quickly and reliably. The only minor problem is because of the position he is taking up the quick forwards pass is typically on his wrong foot  and he'd be far better off if he was playing on the left half of the pitch.
  • Shinnie however is arguably one of the biggest issues in the current set up and blatantly unsuited for it. Tactical he looks unsure of his role and the number of times that one of the following happens when he gets the ball is significant; the momentum of the move is killed dead because he takes too many touches, he gives up possession or he passes in a such a way that the next player does. As much as he is liked if Rooney wants to tactically make work what he's trying to do, Shinnie has to come out of the side.
• AMs
  • The system has been built with Lawrence playing at 10 in mind and whilst he hasn't perhaps pulled up any trees he does seem to tactically understand what his role and what he should be doing at a given time. Need a bit more creatively from him and I think we will see that once other things click into place.
  • Morrison somewhat similar to Lawrence I feel was firmly in the coaching team's mind when thinking on how they want to play this season and does his role well
  • The problem position is the RAM slot. The plan very clearly was to get Aluko in here. Jozwiak and Ebosele have started here but neither are really right for both being right footed and given that Byrne behind them can't play the compensatory role. The player very clearly most suited to it is Sibley but it's just a question of whether Rooney gets over his hangups with him as he looked like a clear fit when he came on versus Peterborough.
• CF
  • This is also where there has been a bit of a problem. I really like CKR but this system needs someone energetic and spinning in behind to open up the space and keep the opposition honest and it's just not his game. It wasn't surprising to me that the game seemed to change when he got injured and Stretton came on because suddenly spaces started to appear.
  • I'm relatively convinced Baldock was being brought in with this in mind and was going to be earmarked as first choice. Personally however I think Stretton looks a better fit and I suspect is more likely to be clinical when it comes to chance creation. 

Whilst it might not look great now with perhaps a couple signings/players returning to fitness it could quickly click into place, it's just down to Rooney and Co to realise why it's not working and fix it. For example a theoretical line up along the lines of the following would likely execute the plan set out pretty well 

Thank you for this post, tremendous work and one of the best things I have read on here, not least because it was written ahead of Hull and I saw much of what you describe actually happen and quite successfully too.  Top work!

[RoyMac5]

What do you reckon about the 'behind scenes' bit in the DCFC Youtube vid @brady1993? I'm going to have to watch it again as I spent more time looking at the pizza I was scoffing than the tv! ?

[brady1993]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

What do you reckon about the 'behind scenes' bit in the DCFC Youtube vid @brady1993? I'm going to have to watch it again as I spent more time looking at the pizza I was scoffing than the tv! ?

I've watched a couple times and I can't 100% make out exactly what they are saying if I'm honest but that was on crap laptop speakers. Might check it out with headphones later.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I've watched a couple times and I can't 100% make out exactly what they are saying if I'm honest but that was on crap laptop speakers. Might check it out with headphones later.

If you watch on Youtube you can cast it to your tv.