The concept of a fan owned club

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, David said:

Do you have any examples of such clubs in English football that are successfully achieving the demands of the fan base?

Why would the examples have to be English ?   If it can be done in Spain or Germany, it can be done in England surely?   There is no reason to believe in English exceptionalism in a footballing sense.

The culture of fan based clubs has not developed in England yet, but that doesn't mean that it can never do so.

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

Why would the examples have to be English ?   If it can be done in Spain or Germany, it can be done in England surely?   There is no reason to believe in English exceptionalism in a footballing sense.

The culture of fan based clubs has not developed in England yet, but that doesn't mean that it can never do so.

Spot on. Just because the culture in England is for owner managed clubs to run up big losses chasing the dream & blind hope that one day a petro-billionaire will arrive, doesn't mean thats the only way to run a club.

After all the bad publicity & financial waste of the past 6 years, it'd be brilliant for Derby to be a shining example to the rest of the top 2 divisions of what fans can achieve.

I keep harking back to two things; our fanbase gives us massive advantages at this level, we should leverage it much better. And the example of AFC Wimbledon in the division below is testament to how fans can build & run a successful club.

I honesty believe a break even model at Derby without the boom & bust cycles of the past 3 decades, will lead to greater success than we've had in the last 30 years.

[Inverurie Ram]

We could book small bands, comedians, disco's, bingo, etc to play in the various corporate bars within the ground to generate money and book the massive big bands to play live within the ground and bring in all other entertainment to bring in the children our current and future fans, family entertainment, theatre, cinema, roller skating, skateboarding, bmx, art galleries, trampolines, bouncy castles, lazers, creches, food halls, restaurants etc etc all open and generating cash thoughout the week. Promote all the local entertainers within the ground, make them superstars and let them generate funds for our club.

And I'll wear some jeans and buy some Status Quo records........................

 

[Shaftesbury Street]

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Spot on. Just because the culture in England is for owner managed clubs to run up big losses chasing the dream & blind hope that one day a petro-billionaire will arrive, doesn't mean thats the only way to run a club.

After all the bad publicity & financial waste of the past 6 years, it'd be brilliant for Derby to be a shining example to the rest of the top 2 divisions of what fans can achieve.

I keep harking back to two things; our fanbase gives us massive advantages at this level, we should leverage it much better. And the example of AFC Wimbledon in the division below is testament to how fans can build & run a successful club.

I honesty believe a break even model at Derby without the boom & bust cycles of the past 3 decades, will lead to greater success than we've had in the last 30 years.

100% agree. 

I think Alan Sugar recently suggested what a farcical idea it was to have an average joe make key decisions about the club (or group collective). I would rather put my trust with the fans than have years have poor decisions from a dictator, oil tycoon or random American consortium. Also lets not pretend that running a football club is like anything else. I know many people that have had personal dealings with Mel, all have said what brilliant business man he is. You would have thought a ridiculously wealthy Derby fan, with immense business pedigree would would be a dream owner for our club and through either desperation or ego it has turned out to be the exact opposite.

That's not to say you can't have a great package in a individual owner and it working well (Leicester) but there are not many examples of that. If the pandemic and ESL has proven anything its that football is broken and fans need to have a greater voice. I'm not sure if a 51% model is the answer for Derby but if there is a genuine threat of liquidation, its definitely something we should explore.

[kevinhectoring]

12 hours ago, Rev said:

I don't think the idea is to have a large number of fans in the boardroom.

It's to give fans a voice in the direction the club takes, via elections or some other method.

People would run for President, and back up their ideas with costs and projections. Should they not meet these, maybe the new constitution would make them responsible for meeting the shortfall. Perhaps they could deposit a set amount into an escrow account, as a condition of running, to be drawn on if their ambitions don't come to fruition?

This would give us a smaller risk free choice between candidates in any vote, between someone who wants to spend what we earn, and a candidate who's willing to commit extra funding to accelerate progress, for instance.

If plans do come off, they can reward themselves financially from the extra income through bonuses etc, in a similar way that Daniel Levy is renumerated at Spurs, for instance.

If things go tits up halfway into a regimes reign, in certain circumstances the membership can vote to remove them early, subject to constitutional checks and balances.

In such a system, you'd become a member automatically by buying a season ticket, other members would be added by paying a small annual subscription, similar to the memberships we already offer with similar benefits, and a further membership offer to remote fans, whether abroad or at home.

Thats my take on how it could possibly work, obviously it's nowhere near a fully formed plan, and has obvious pitfalls, but as a basis for discussion it's a starting point. 

I'm an idealist, but just imagine how much better Mel's legacy could be if it ended up with a fan owned, democratically run football club, truly embedded in its community.

I sound like a hippy!

Best aspect would be the AGM. At PP in the summer on a weekend. Woodstock meets Bierfest. We’d start at say noon on Saturday (later for those at the cricket, buses provided) and weave our way home at about 7 pm on Sunday. A few local bands. Formal proceedings could include speeches by prominent members of the forum, eggs and tomatoes would be supplied. All tax deductible for the PLC 

Edited May 16, 2021 by kevinhectoring

[GB SPORTS]

1 hour ago, Inverurie Ram said:

We could book small bands, comedians, disco's, bingo, etc to play in the various corporate bars within the ground to generate money and book the massive big bands to play live within the ground and bring in all other entertainment to bring in the children our current and future fans, family entertainment, theatre, cinema, roller skating, skateboarding, bmx, art galleries, trampolines, bouncy castles, lazers, creches, food halls, restaurants etc etc all open and generating cash thoughout the week. Promote all the local entertainers within the ground, make them superstars and let them generate funds for our club.

And I'll wear some jeans and buy some Status Quo records........................

 

I'll run the raffle every week.

I am not trying to knock the Idea as anything that keeps the club existing should be on the table, but for every Wimbledon there is a Port Vale, who went down this path in 2000 and ended in receivership. The main reasons being conflicting objectives and personalities.

Wimbledon works because it is in the hands of a relatively few people and a passive share holder basis. This may work scaling it up 20x but also it may not.

It is also a "New" club ie: Winkleman bought out the franchise and moved it to MK, the supporters then started from afresh.

 

[Mucker1884]

Would we be able to protest against ourselves?  

If not, then I'm out!  ?

[MrPlinkett]

2 minutes ago, Mucker1884 said:

Would we be able to protest against ourselves?  

If not, then I'm out!  ?

it will probably be like im a celeb or big brother when each week we vote for a set of fans to stand in the middle of the pitch so we can roundly boo them.

 

[JoetheRam]

No reason whatsoever that a 50 +1/"German model" cannot be equally successful as the "find a rich guy to plow money in" method. I do think a 100% fan owned club would be very hard for us to have the financial clout for to make us competitive in the Championship though.

But what 50+1 would give us, the fans, is the opportunity to govern and shape the sort of club that we are.

I think observations or concerns that fans would be changing the manager every 2 minutes or would be demanding John from the Dog and Duck play up front are a little misguided though. 

Fans wouldn't vote on every minute decision, we'd elect a president who would run the club on our behalf based on what they say they would do for us. They would decide who the manager is etc. Term lengths would be governed by a constitution that the fans would come up with, if at the end of the term the fans didn't like the job the president had done we could vote them out.

President decides we have a gambling firm as sponsor? Vote them out.

President renames the ground The Gary Birtles Arena? Vote them out.

President wants to push Marstons Smooth as the drink of choice on the concourse? Vote them out.

That is what 50+1 would entail and I would love it to happen. Especially if we were the largest example of it in England.

I guess we need Mel to agree to sell us 51% of the club (presuming he is personally still wealthy enough which I guess he is) nothing to stop him doing so for £1 per share (sure we could get 50,000 members easy at that price).

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by JoetheRam

[LeedsCityRam]

2 hours ago, Shaftesbury Street said:

100% agree. 

I think Alan Sugar recently suggested what a farcical idea it was to have an average joe make key decisions about the club (or group collective). I would rather put my trust with the fans than have years have poor decisions from a dictator, oil tycoon or random American consortium. Also lets not pretend that running a football club is like anything else. I know many people that have had personal dealings with Mel, all have said what brilliant business man he is. You would have thought a ridiculously wealthy Derby fan, with immense business pedigree would would be a dream owner for our club and through either desperation or ego it has turned out to be the exact opposite.

That's not to say you can't have a great package in a individual owner and it working well (Leicester) but there are not many examples of that. If the pandemic and ESL has proven anything its that football is broken and fans need to have a greater voice. I'm not sure if a 51% model is the answer for Derby but if there is a genuine threat of liquidation, its definitely something we should explore.

Exactly. Fundamentally individual ownership leads to decision making which doesn't have to undergo checks & balances until the worst happens; poor results and/or poor financial situation. Its also very easy to allow ego to rule head particularly when you're dealing with the adulation or extreme criticism of the fans & even more so if you're a fan of the club. Can't fault Mel's commitment or his business acumen to become wealthy in the first place but the reality is his football decisions have been extremely poor.

Regarding the fans model, I would like this for Derby in any case & not just as a crisis measure in the midst of our current financial problems. Looks like from Alan Nixon's tweet this morning, we have a number of bidders for the club - great on paper but they're very likely just going to refinance debt/employ a leveraged buyout to have a 1/2 year stab at promotion. Great if it works but potentially catastrophic if it doesn't.

Sustainability seems a dirty word in football but the reality is it enables a club to actually think about long term planning/strategies that are far more likely to be successful than chucking cash at the problem. Derby by size of club are top 20 in the country - no reason why we couldn't sustain a top flight club naturally rather than relying on handouts.

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Sustainability seems a dirty word in football but the reality is it enables a club to actually think about long term planning/strategies that are far more likely to be successful than chucking cash at the problem. Derby by size of club are top 20 in the country - no reason why we couldn't sustain a top flight club naturally rather than relying on handouts.

You'd think bringing players in through the Academy would fit well with that model.

[LeedsCityRam]

27 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You'd think bringing players in through the Academy would fit well with that model.

Indeed. Our wage bill will have dropped significantly over the past couple of years as youth players replaced established Championship players - would be interesting to see how close we are to sustainability assuming pre-Covid turnover.

The other route would be lower league step ups, an area we've neglected pretty much since Nigel Clough left. There's a lot of unpolished talent out there & wise recruitment plus a coaching staff that can improve players would be a great way to get quality in at value prices.

Edited May 16, 2021 by LeedsCityRam

[HorsforthRam]

So, how does even exploring this initiative (beyond discussions on a fans forum) happen?

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, JoetheRam said:

 

I guess we need Mel to agree to sell us 51% of the club (presuming he is personally still wealthy enough which I guess he is) nothing to stop him doing so for £1 per share (sure we could get 50,000 members easy at that price).

 

what does Mel get of this? £50k?

he is still the only source of day to day funding except now he gets vetoed by the £1 club?

if he tries to sell now all he has is a minority stake

I must be missing something.

[LeedsCityRam]

12 minutes ago, HorsforthRam said:

So, how does even exploring this initiative (beyond discussions on a fans forum) happen?

I've emailed the guy at the FSF who advises fan groups on how to get these off the ground. Our situation going to be very different from all of the other clubs under fan ownership as a) we would be looking to buy a large, existing club & b) any purchase would need to clear some of the debt off (assuming could come to some arrangement with Mel)

https://thefsa.org.uk/our-work/supporter-ownership/

[JoetheRam]

25 minutes ago, Spanish said:

what does Mel get of this? £50k?

he is still the only source of day to day funding except now he gets vetoed by the £1 club?

if he tries to sell now all he has is a minority stake

I must be missing something.

Yes you're right. My scenario was a bit hypothetical to show how fans could get the controlling stake. 

Just saying he personally doesn't need the money so essentially giving the control of the club to the the fans would be his lasting legacy. He can sell his remaining 49% to someone with dollar willing to invest.

Not saying he should do that as he is a hard nosed business man who will want to recoup some of the £200m he's put in, but as the kind benevolent 'Uncle' he could be, he could theoretically do so.

Edited May 16, 2021 by JoetheRam

[Spanish]

4 minutes ago, JoetheRam said:

Yes you're right. My scenario was a bit hypothetical to show how fans could get the controlling stake. 

Just saying he personally doesn't need the money so essentially giving the control of the club to the the fans would be his lasting legacy. He can sell his remaining 49% to someone with dollar willing to invest.

Not saying he should do that as he is a hard nosed business man who will want to recoup some of the £200m he's put in, but as the kind benevolent 'Uncle' he could be, he could theoretically do so.

yes there is a lot of trust on him being a fan owner just hope we are all not let down.  Honestly I don't think he will close us down but it looks clear that he is willing to sell to anybody sadly

[Simmo’s left foot]

Its all a very good idea, but do a few basic sums starting at say 20,000 people putting £500 in...

[JoetheRam]

Derby has 250,000 people though, so if the idea is "community owned" rather than fan owned then the maths looks better. Not everyone who is a fan goes to the games.

[Woodley Ram]

it could happen but fraught with difficulties. You would need to trust the executive with all of the decisions or they would not be able to react quickly enough.  How do you make sure people pay their fee's and what happens if they don't pay.  I think that you would need to sell this on a share basis, so some people might have a share valued £1k and others 100 shares valued at £100,000. That way you might get large businesses take up large share options supplemented by the normal fans.

You would need to run the club on a zero based budget as you could not expect to go back to the shareholders for an additional 8m because you have over spent.

What would happen if someone wants to leave, do they just walk away or do they get something based on the value of the club (lower in League 1 but a lot higher in the Prem)

Lovely idea but I dont think it has legs