The concept of a fan owned club

[Shaftesbury Street]

8 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Surely fans could have no say at all in any operational matters. The democracy comes from their right to appoint the board. Like any old company. 

Yes, but the fans set the structure on how the club should be run, the board implement a plan based on that structure and an elected fan representative signs it off. 

[Comrade 86]

Haven't read the thread so apologies if this has been alluded to already, but the Union Berlin model seems to me to be something to aspire to. It was, however, predicated as much upon the unshakeable support of the fans as their financial contributions and with our fanbase descending into the realms of Month Python-like splinter factions, it's hard to see any such endeavour working at Derby.

Let's be honest here. Fan ownership would tear this club apart quicker than any number of poor owners, that's how fickle we've become. 

[RoyMac5]

36 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Let's be honest here. Fan ownership would tear this club apart quicker than any number of poor owners, that's how fickle we've become. 

I can't agree with that. If an ownership model that was workable and affordable (dunno some funding somehow 'attached' to season tickets?) for the fans was suggested I think it would be highly popular - see the poll on the Ramstrust letter, many don't speak up unless anonymous.

Edited May 19, 2021 by RoyMac5

[Comrade 86]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I can't agree with that. If an ownership model that was workable and affordable (dunno some funding somehow 'attached' to season tickets?) for the fans was suggested I think it would be highly popular - see the poll on the Ramstrust letter, many don't speak up unless anonymous.

Ifs, buts and maybes. Have you seen our accounts? Have you digested the sums of money involved in keeping the club afloat? It's not going to be affordable and payments from many would dry up the moment we hit a flat spot anyway. 

If your time on this forum has taught you anything, it ought to have shown that fans are vey quick to turn on the club and its component parts and to have those same fans responsible for the financial upkeep of the club would be to expose the club to unacceptable risk. 

There's also a great deal of difference between clicking a button on a forum poll and stumping up thousands of pounds a year to keep the club afloat. In any case, it seems to me you apportion great value to polls that support your opinions and next to none at all to those that don't. 

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, Shaftesbury Street said:

Yes, but the fans set the structure on how the club should be run, the board implement a plan based on that structure and an elected fan representative signs it off. 

Absolutely. The fans can vote on overall policy/objectives  - perfect role for shareholders. But you don’t want fans voting on who the manager is 

[RoyMac5]

9 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

There's also a great deal of difference between clicking a button on a forum poll and stumping up thousands of pounds a year to keep the club afloat. In any case, it seems to me you apportion great value to polls that support your opinions and next to none at all to those that don't. 

Yes I can see that all Derby fans won't agree with one another. 

I will continue to contend that if it were possible to do, a fan owned/involved club - probably meaning no more involvement than say most 'partners' at Waitrose have - would be popular. 

[Spanish]

8 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes I can see that all Derby fans won't agree with one another. 

I will continue to contend that if it were possible to do, a fan owned/involved club - probably meaning no more involvement than say most 'partners' at Waitrose have - would be popular. 

don't we have a fan owned club already?  Sorry couldn't resist

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, Spanish said:

don't we have a fan owned club already?  Sorry couldn't resist

Lol. I guess so. ?

[Comrade 86]

57 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes I can see that all Derby fans won't agree with one another.

Wasn't the point being made though, was it?

57 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I will continue to contend that if it were possible to do, a fan owned/involved club

I've not referred to 'fan involvement' only fan ownership. Most folk might be able to surmise the obvious difference.

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

probably meaning no more involvement than say most 'partners' at Waitrose have

So not owning the club at all then. Have you read the thread title?

[RoyMac5]

22 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Wasn't the point being made though, was it?

I've not referred to 'fan involvement' only fan ownership. Most folk might be able to surmise the obvious difference.

So not owning the club at all then. Have you read the thread title?

Yes, I have. Unlike you I see no need to be aggressive about it.

I still think that although some fans will react negatively to anything, most would see a benefit in fans owning some or all of the club. I think that what is making it difficult to have any kind of consensus is that there is no one actual model, or even a couple of specifics, to be considered.

[Comrade 86]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes, I have. Unlike you I see no need to be aggressive about it.

I still think that although some fans will react negatively to anything, most would see a benefit in fans owning some or all of the club. I think that what is making it difficult to have any kind of consensus is that there is no one actual model, or even a couple of specifics, to be considered.

Not being aggressive Roy. Stop playing the victim card at every opportunity. You've posted, I've replied. No need to be so melodramatic all the time dear. Since responding to your posts causes you so much discomfort, I'll leave it there.

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Since responding to your posts causes you so much discomfort, I'll leave it there.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

[Shaftesbury Street]

8 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Haven't read the thread so apologies if this has been alluded to already, but the Union Berlin model seems to me to be something to aspire to. It was, however, predicated as much upon the unshakeable support of the fans as their financial contributions and with our fanbase descending into the realms of Month Python-like splinter factions, it's hard to see any such endeavour working at Derby.

Let's be honest here. Fan ownership would tear this club apart quicker than any number of poor owners, that's how fickle we've become. 

That fickle attitude has stemmed from poor communication, poor financial decisions and fans not having a voice when it matters. 

Of course it doesn't have to be a fan owned model to improve this a lot of the above can improved with better ownership but the attitudes of fans will change drastically when they feel they are a part of something.

The fan experience in German football is something else and albeit not the main reason, but the 51% contributes to that 'our club' mentality which builds that unflinching support.

Cheap tickets and beer might also help ?

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Shaftesbury Street said:

That fickle attitude has stemmed from poor communication, poor financial decisions and fans not having a voice when it matters. 

Of course it doesn't have to be a fan owned model to improve this a lot of the above can improved with better ownership but the attitudes of fans will change drastically when they feel they are a part of something.

The fan experience in German football is something else and albeit not the main reason, but the 51% contributes to that 'our club' mentality which builds that unflinching support.

Cheap tickets and beer might also help ?

Perhaps you're right. Certainly, a year or two back I'd almost certainly have shared your outlook but recently I'm become rather jaded, partially by the upheavals at the club, I concede, but not wholly.

As for cheap tickets and beer, well what's not to like! I think also, however, that the German mentality and mindset lends itself better to such models than would be likely in dear old Blighty but perhaps that's a jaundiced outlook too.

I've mentioned the Union Berlin fans who seem as staunch as any I've seen and literally gave blood to finance their rebuild as well as committing over 140,000 man hours of labour. The fans seem to love a good old sing song and they can bounce too.  Check out the vid below and the madness at 7m 50s ?

 

[AutoWindscreens]

10 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Ifs, buts and maybes. Have you seen our accounts? Have you digested the sums of money involved in keeping the club afloat? It's not going to be affordable and payments from many would dry up the moment we hit a flat spot anyway. 

If your time on this forum has taught you anything, it ought to have shown that fans are vey quick to turn on the club and its component parts and to have those same fans responsible for the financial upkeep of the club would be to expose the club to unacceptable risk. 

There's also a great deal of difference between clicking a button on a forum poll and stumping up thousands of pounds a year to keep the club afloat. In any case, it seems to me you apportion great value to polls that support your opinions and next to none at all to those that don't. 

It's never going to be an option that a fan owned club runs on a budget requiring yearly payments to keep the club afloat. It could only be on a break even basis - and not a bad thing, surely.

[Comrade 86]

18 minutes ago, AutoWindscreens said:

It's never going to be an option that a fan owned club runs on a budget requiring yearly payments to keep the club afloat. It could only be on a break even basis - and not a bad thing, surely.

We're £60 million in debt buddy. I love the idea of us being a fan-owned, break-even outfit but we're a million miles from that right now and how many break even clubs get promoted these days?

What you describe is a lovely ideal but there's a reason no such club exists in this country. Anyway, I feel like I'm pissing on peoples' chips here so I'll tootle off now.

[Inverurie Ram]

DCFC fans owned break-even outfit on their first day in the Pride Park boardroom.

BREAKING NEWS........

......Parents of fans owning Derby County already moaning about the lack of care, milk, crayons and paint at Pride Park.

Spokesperson and head of positivity @Jourdan promises to install the necessary support, fuel, stationery and belief required in every fan to work and play in harmony to deliver positive results in and out of the boardroom. This includes giving @RoyMac5 detention for the rest of the year, where he has to write everyday 100 times in his work book..................

"I need to doubt the football club I love a whole lot more and lower my expectations and wallow in misery and convince everyone in the boardroom that I can be as miserable as them and join in with the disrespect of our current manager and if we all bounce off such negativity, then hopefully we can all jump for joy with Buzz and Woody, so we can all get to Division One and beyond as soon as possible"..............................

Edited May 19, 2021 by Inverurie Ram

[LeedsCityRam]

So, had a phone call with a very helpful & knowledgeable chap from the FSA this afternoon. He didn’t dismiss the idea of fans taking over at Derby & believed a well-supported one club city would stand a better chance than most to bring about a successful fan ownership model. He also made reference to the Fan Led Review – a task force set up by Government that is specifically looking at facilitating greater fan control of clubs & sustainability. This is due to report later this year on recommendations.

He did however warn it would be extremely difficult, that the Championship in particular was a basketcase division & threw around some horrifying amounts that benevolent chairmen have had to spend to keep their clubs competitive (including Mel). Nothing to be fair we'd didn't already suspect.

Asked him a few questions on behalf of interested parties on here;

Q Have you had many past enquiries from fans of other big clubs? What were the sticking points?

Yes, plenty. General issue is either that the cost of the club is prohibitively expensive or the size of the debt is far too high for fans to reasonably service

Q What are the different types of fan ownership models?

Two main types; conventional Limited Company (with shares) or a CBS (Community Benefit Society) which is basically a mutual co-operative. A CBS has to have one member one vote irrespective of member contribution & any profits have to be ploughed back into the business. There is also potentially corporation tax exemption

Q Ways of raising money to fund a fan buyout?

Either selling shares in a conventional Limited company or via debentures/supporter bond – basically fans lend money to the new ownership group at a low rate of annual interest. Also very wise to go after High Net Worth individuals who support the club – this was the basis of the successful buy in at Portsmouth in 2013 & the purchase of the new Plough Lane ground by AFC Wimbledon in 2019

Q Standard fan involvement in fan owned clubs?

Generally is a membership scheme for a small fee which entitles each member to a vote. Supporters are then able to vote for members to be appointed to the Board, who will then appoint a Chief Executive to run the actual club (this is the model AFC Wimbledon use). Other big decisions such as a badge change, significant changes to ground etc will also go back to the membership but these can vary depending on what fans agree from the outset should go to a vote.

Q Best way of organising fans into a collective to launch a fan led buyout

Supporters Trust (yes, Ramstrust). They have the connections to FSA & are meant to represent the supporters’ interest as a whole.

 

Obviously the last point may not sit well with a few on here, particularly given the recent letter sent to the club on ‘behalf of the fans’ (I personally have no opinion on them). The guy I spoke to made it clear Ramstrust’s connections with the FSA meant they wouldn’t want to seriously engage with another DCFC group for fear of causing offence & that it would be in our best interests to bring all fan groups together (he also referenced Punjabi Rams). He certainly knew the individuals heading up Ramstrust & was also aware of some of the ill feeling from 2002-2005.

I hope the information above helps to give some perspective. I was also advised to speak to a colleague of his (when he returned from holiday) who actually led the fan buyout of Portsmouth in 2013. Think his knowledge would be invaluable particularly given similarities between a) Portsmouth & Derby as football clubs/fanbases & b) the debt mountain that had accumulated under previous ownerships

Before going down that avenue though, I think the ball is back in our court as fans i.e. is this something people want to come together & seriously look at?

For me, the route looks something a bit like this;

• Form a specific group via this forum to throw around some ideas especially around gaining support from wider fanbase, getting funding & ideas for a potential constitution and then agree on a draft plan
• Approach major DCFC fan groups; yes, RamsTrust but also Punjabi Rams to present our plan, sell them the idea & then work on an actionable plan going forward. If this goes well, probably a good time to speak to the FSA contact who led the Portsmouth buyout for specific advice before ‘going public’
• Potential two-pronged attack; float idea to fans across all social media channels/ conventional advertising in Derbyshire explaining the plan & asking for pledge of funds and target high net worth Derby fans to see if they can also commit to a pledge of funding
• Depending on what amount can credibly be raised via fans (and possibly externally) approach the club. We’re not going raise anywhere near £60m but a serious fraction of that may at least get us round a table

No doubt about it, this is a real long shot but it’s going to happen to a large club one day – why couldn’t it be us? And even if it doesn’t come off, the thought of bringing the fanbase together & actually being proactive rather than passively accepting our fate, could recharge energy & enthusiasm amongst us.

Maybe naïve but that’s my take ?

[europia]

27 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

So, had a phone call with a very helpful & knowledgeable chap from the FSA this afternoon. He didn’t dismiss the idea of fans taking over at Derby & believed a well-supported one club city would stand a better chance than most to bring about a successful fan ownership model. He also made reference to the Fan Led Review – a task force set up by Government that is specifically looking at facilitating greater fan control of clubs & sustainability. This is due to report later this year on recommendations.

He did however warn it would be extremely difficult, that the Championship in particular was a basketcase division & threw around some horrifying amounts that benevolent chairmen have had to spend to keep their clubs competitive (including Mel). Nothing to be fair we'd didn't already suspect.

Asked him a few questions on behalf of interested parties on here;

Q Have you had many past enquiries from fans of other big clubs? What were the sticking points?

Yes, plenty. General issue is either that the cost of the club is prohibitively expensive or the size of the debt is far too high for fans to reasonably service

Q What are the different types of fan ownership models?

Two main types; conventional Limited Company (with shares) or a CBS (Community Benefit Society) which is basically a mutual co-operative. A CBS has to have one member one vote irrespective of member contribution & any profits have to be ploughed back into the business. There is also potentially corporation tax exemption

Q Ways of raising money to fund a fan buyout?

Either selling shares in a conventional Limited company or via debentures/supporter bond – basically fans lend money to the new ownership group at a low rate of annual interest. Also very wise to go after High Net Worth individuals who support the club – this was the basis of the successful buy in at Portsmouth in 2013 & the purchase of the new Plough Lane ground by AFC Wimbledon in 2019

Q Standard fan involvement in fan owned clubs?

Generally is a membership scheme for a small fee which entitles each member to a vote. Supporters are then able to vote for members to be appointed to the Board, who will then appoint a Chief Executive to run the actual club (this is the model AFC Wimbledon use). Other big decisions such as a badge change, significant changes to ground etc will also go back to the membership but these can vary depending on what fans agree from the outset should go to a vote.

Q Best way of organising fans into a collective to launch a fan led buyout

Supporters Trust (yes, Ramstrust). They have the connections to FSA & are meant to represent the supporters’ interest as a whole.

 

Obviously the last point may not sit well with a few on here, particularly given the recent letter sent to the club on ‘behalf of the fans’ (I personally have no opinion on them). The guy I spoke to made it clear Ramstrust’s connections with the FSA meant they wouldn’t want to seriously engage with another DCFC group for fear of causing offence & that it would be in our best interests to bring all fan groups together (he also referenced Punjabi Rams). He certainly knew the individuals heading up Ramstrust & was also aware of some of the ill feeling from 2002-2005.

I hope the information above helps to give some perspective. I was also advised to speak to a colleague of his (when he returned from holiday) who actually led the fan buyout of Portsmouth in 2013. Think his knowledge would be invaluable particularly given similarities between a) Portsmouth & Derby as football clubs/fanbases & b) the debt mountain that had accumulated under previous ownerships

Before going down that avenue though, I think the ball is back in our court as fans i.e. is this something people want to come together & seriously look at?

For me, the route looks something a bit like this;

• Form a specific group via this forum to throw around some ideas especially around gaining support from wider fanbase, getting funding & ideas for a potential constitution and then agree on a draft plan
• Approach major DCFC fan groups; yes, RamsTrust but also Punjabi Rams to present our plan, sell them the idea & then work on an actionable plan going forward. If this goes well, probably a good time to speak to the FSA contact who led the Portsmouth buyout for specific advice before ‘going public’
• Potential two-pronged attack; float idea to fans across all social media channels/ conventional advertising in Derbyshire explaining the plan & asking for pledge of funds and target high net worth Derby fans to see if they can also commit to a pledge of funding
• Depending on what amount can credibly be raised via fans (and possibly externally) approach the club. We’re not going raise anywhere near £60m but a serious fraction of that may at least get us round a table

No doubt about it, this is a real long shot but it’s going to happen to a large club one day – why couldn’t it be us? And even if it doesn’t come off, the thought of bringing the fanbase together & actually being proactive rather than passively accepting our fate, could recharge energy & enthusiasm amongst us.

Maybe naïve but that’s my take ?

Really interesting. Good bit of research work there LCR. Much appreciated ?

[AutoWindscreens]

2 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

We're £60 million in debt buddy. I love the idea of us being a fan-owned, break-even outfit but we're a million miles from that right now and how many break even clubs get promoted these days?

What you describe is a lovely ideal but there's a reason no such club exists in this country. Anyway, I feel like I'm pissing on peoples' chips here so I'll tootle off now.

We hear that nobody is up for paying that £60m, and the story is that if Mel wants to find a realistic buyer he'll have to pay down some of the debt himself. If there is a chance of that happening, why not for a supporters' vehicle?