The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, maxjam said:

It has nothing to do with selfishness or empathy, over 75% of all UK adults are now double jabbed

I wasn't talking specifically about covid vaccinations - more generally about giving people freedom of choice being OK until their choices harm others

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

5 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Of course - unless it harms others. That's where the real debate lies. Boils down to a consensus on how many people/which people are being harmed before it's considered worthy of taking action. Which all depends on the individuals level of selfishness and lack of empathy

Where is the proof that you are going to harm someone?

Surely you'd need to prove someone actually had Covid first?

Then where is the proof that if you have Covid that you are going to pass it on?

Where do we draw the line?

Are you selfish and have no empathy if you go out in a car, knowing that you run the risk of killing people by running them over or in a traffic accident?

[Archied]

5 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

Of course - unless it harms others. That's where the real debate lies. Boils down to a consensus on how many people/which people are being harmed before it's considered worthy of taking action. Which all depends on the individuals level of selfishness and lack of empathy

 

 

To be fair the policies used to protect some from covid have harmed many many people ,, there is a balance 

[Stive Pesley]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

To be fair the policies used to protect some from covid have harmed many many people ,, there is a balance 

Precisely my point - it's all about balance. When @G STAR RAM says "Are you selfish and have no empathy if you go out in a car, knowing that you run the risk of killing people by running them over or in a traffic accident?" I know he is exaggerating for effect, but it's all by degree isn't it - from the buddhist monk who won't even step outside in case he hurts an insect to the fully selfish who just simply want to do whatever they like and sod everyone else.

All I was trying to say was that there has to be a sensible line drawn somewhere as to what harm is "too much harm" and therefore should be legislated against. I guess I was thinking more of something like the smoking ban than vaccinations per se. Have said multiple times that I don't support forcing anyone to be vaccinated 

 

[Albert]

9 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Less than 6000 in hospital, compared to 40000 at the peak, and admissions remaining pretty flat.

The only thing that confidence may drop in now is the effectiveness of the vaccine but given that 80% of the adult population have done all they can, I do not see consumer confidence changing much now, a good measure of this would be how many people are continuing to wear masks and let me tell you, its not many.

As seen in the pandemic, it goes cases, hospitalisations, deaths. Cases had a bit of a downturn before fully opening up, and are now trending back up. Hospitalisations have flattened slightly, but are looking like climbing again. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like the cycle is set to repeat. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

I'm not the one suggesting you do that.  Mark McGowan is suggesting you might keep some restrictions even after hitting your 80% vaccination target.

Mark McGowan isn't sold on the idea that NSW will actually keep their end of the bargain and crush the current outbreak. In that scenario, they really can't. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

So you're alright, thats fine then.  Other parts of Australia are living under different conditions and have suffered 100+ day lockdowns.  

Yep. NSW's situation, however, is entirely a result of government incompetence, trying to play politics with a virus, rather than following the lead of the rest of the country. It hurts, but it was entirely avoidable, hence why lockdowns etc tend to be so popular here. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

If most people are not concerned about having the military police your streets,  public health orders redrafted to favour the police not the public,  drones watching over you,  spot checks whilst in your own home,  excessive fines for having an opinion or protesting against Govt policy etc then it will be very interesting to see where you are in 12 months time.

Whilst I know China - Australia relations aren't great atm, it is funny to see China calling out Australia for their authoritarian restrictions;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9853931/Australias-draconian-restrictions-mocked-Beijing-Sydney-used-police-helicopters.html

It will be interesting to see where this all ends up. The idea that universally there is this eroding of rights though is quite wide of the mark. NSW, which is run very poorly, and the closest aligned with the likes of the current UK government, are the ones doing all the things you're bringing up here though. The irony is they did most of these things to avoid having to do a full lockdown, trying to do a light touch one, then scaring people into cooperating, while having loose rules, LGA specific orders, etc. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

She wasn't driving a stolen car though was she, she was in her own home protesting an anti-lockdown protest online.  Is protesting the Govt illegal now?

Organising and promoting illegal gathers, ie conspiring to break the lockdown rules, is illegal. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

So is Swedens and they are hovering around 0 daily deaths now.

There's always been a lag between cases and deaths, and their cases are climbing again. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

What about to enter a nightclub, a pub or a football match?  What about attending educational facilities?  What about to enter a supermarket or use public transport?  If you want to travel abroad to a country with 'disease X' then thats your personal choice.  I shouldn't need to show my papers to travel around locally. 

There are jobs that require vaccination even now in most countries. Seems perfectly reasonable, as long as there are provisions for genuine medical exceptions. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

TBH this debate could carry on, I don't know what will happen in Australia, I'm thousands of miles away and have never been (unlikely to go now as well cos you've shut up shop ?) but it will be interesting to see where we all are in a years time. 

I wonder whether we'll have our freedoms back and have returned to pre-pandemic life or whether we'll be living under some kind of track and trace regime that will imho almost certainly evolve over time to become ever more authoritarian - all for our benefit and protection of course...

It's interesting to suggest that these restrictions are good for governments. There's a reason most countries were super soft about them, and even in countries like Australia the cheapskates like NSW were reluctant to use them. Governments aren't gaining anything from them, they're expensive and tedious to run. I don't see them having any real use for them, at least in their current form, at the end of this. We already give the World enough personal information for far easier means of surveillance and control, if their aim was using such for authoritarianism, they wouldn't need to be using the kinds of systems they have now. 

9 hours ago, maxjam said:

Why is that a problem? 

Anyone that wants the jab has almost certainly had it by now.  Unless we mandate people have to be vaccinated life must go ahead and some people will die.  The alternative is was remain locked down forever.  Mass vaccinate for covid and flu every year.  Ban smoking and alcohol and set up some kind of 'National Socialist League of the Reich for Physical Exercise'.  

Surely people have to be free to live life as they choose?  If they don't want to get vaccinated, drink or smoke themselves into an early grave then ultimately that is their choice.

There do exist people who can't get vaccines, for for whom they simply aren't effective. For that reason, getting a close to a fully vaccinated population as possible is important. It is interesting seeing people willing to pay for their 'freedom' with other people's lives though. 

[Albert]

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Where is the proof that you are going to harm someone?

Surely you'd need to prove someone actually had Covid first?

Then where is the proof that if you have Covid that you are going to pass it on?

Where do we draw the line?

Are you selfish and have no empathy if you go out in a car, knowing that you run the risk of killing people by running them over or in a traffic accident?

The point is that if you're not vaccinated, it's easier for you to be part of the chain that leads to harm to others. Being vaccinated, hence, reduces everyone else's risk. The same goes for all restrictions, as they are all reducing risk. You need to see it more as reducing risk of transmission, than it being about who specifically did the transmitting. 

If you are in a car accident, it is only the people in the cars that are injured, but with Covid, it keeps getting passed on; car accidents aren't infectious.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, Albert said:

As seen in the pandemic, it goes cases, hospitalisations, deaths. Cases had a bit of a downturn before fully opening up, and are now trending back up. Hospitalisations have flattened slightly, but are looking like climbing again. I hope I'm wrong, but it looks like the cycle is set to repeat. 

We've already had a massive upturn in cases that was in no way matched by a similar upturn in hospitalisations and deaths.

[G STAR RAM]

1 minute ago, Albert said:

The point is that if you're not vaccinated, it's easier for you to be part of the chain that leads to harm to others. Being vaccinated, hence, reduces everyone else's risk. The same goes for all restrictions, as they are all reducing risk. You need to see it more as reducing risk of transmission, than it being about who specifically did the transmitting. 

If you are in a car accident, it is only the people in the cars that are injured, but with Covid, it keeps getting passed on; car accidents aren't infectious.

Well I'm double vaccinated so am safe as I'm ever going to be.

Couldn't care less if other people around me have not been vaccinated. 

Something is going to kill me one day, and I really don't want people putting their lives on hold just to 100% make sure it isn't Covid that kills me.

And for some reason I'm seen as the selfish one!

[uttoxram75]

Having a week on the south coast and finding it pretty much back to normal.

No masks on buses or trains. Being able to get served at the bar ratherr than table service.

If you didn’t watch the news you would never know there’s a pandemic going on. 
 

 

[1of4]

As the country starts to return to some semblance of normality,there is still have a large section of our community that are in danger from the virus, namely school children.

Presently there are no plans to vaccinate children. With schools planning to fully reopen in a couple of weeks, kids will now be in more danger of contracting the virus, than they were in the previous year.

As the schools in the USA return, they are seeing an increase in the number of children being admitted to hospital and sadly the number of fatalities, especially is states with low rates of adult vaccinations

Yes the UK's vaccination percentage rates are high but it needs to be higher. We has adults have a responsibility to make sure we keep the youngest members of society as safe as we can. This can be improved by us all getting vaccinated and to carry on social distancing and wearing masks where appropriate.

 

[Angry Ram]

Just watched that video of the geezer in Victoria saying you can’t remove masks to drink out doors now. Bloody hell, what’s going on. 
no idea how to link a tweet here. 

[maxjam]

22 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

Just watched that video of the geezer in Victoria saying you can’t remove masks to drink out doors now. Bloody hell, what’s going on. 
no idea how to link a tweet here. 

Just click on the tweet, then copy and paste the url.  Like I did with this one ? 

 

 

[Gone]

1 hour ago, Angry Ram said:

Just watched that video of the geezer in Victoria saying you can’t remove masks to drink out doors now. Bloody hell, what’s going on. 
no idea how to link a tweet here. 

? good luck Oz 

 

[Angry Ram]

2 hours ago, TexasRam said:

? good luck Oz 

 

That’s the puppy. Cheers. 

[maxjam]

I see that New Zealand have gone into a snap lockdown after its first case of covid in 6 months.

Meanwhile, children in NeZ and Australia are falling ill due to covid immunity debt. 

*I'm not saying that one is better than the other but there is a cost to mask mandates, social distancing and lockdowns.  The only difference being you get updated daily about covid whereas everything else is brushed under the carpet as collateral damage.

 

[Stive Pesley]

7 minutes ago, maxjam said:

*I'm not saying that one is better than the other but there is a cost to mask mandates, social distancing and lockdowns.  The only difference being you get updated daily about covid whereas everything else is brushed under the carpet as collateral damage.

so what do you suggest should be the alternative? I'm not sure it's exactly "brushed under the carpet" - you've literally posted a video of it being discussed on a national TV channel, and I see it being discussed everywhere by those who seem to spend their lives being outraged online about one thing or another

[maxjam]

5 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

so what do you suggest should be the alternative? I'm not sure it's exactly "brushed under the carpet" - you've literally posted a video of it being discussed on a national TV channel, and I see it being discussed everywhere by those who seem to spend their lives being outraged online about one thing or another

Not suggesting an alternative, just stating that all the covid measures we have introduced might save some lives but they will cost them elsewhere.  

I hardly think Talk Radio can be classed as a national TV channel!  Maybe the few thousand that maybe watch it on youtube and others than read their tweets only seem to spend their lives outraged because not enough consideration is being given to alternative opinions? 

Sweden started off being the poster boy for the anti-lockdown brigade before being mocked on this forum for their rising death tally.  Despite rising cases, their daily death rate has remained really low for the past 6 weeks.  When all of this has blown over, it will be interesting to see whether their approach has fared any better than ours or that of other nations that locked down.  Their economy is doign better than other EU nations and I guess their excess non-covid related deaths will be better too.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53664354

[BucksRam]

After some recent soul searching, the wife and I took our kids to Chessington World of Adventure yesterday mainly because they'd been crying out to do something "exciting" and we weren't going abroad as most of their friends were.  Have to say by early afternoon the place was heaving and even I, fairly relaxed these days (rightly or wrongly) having been double-shot, started to feel a bit uncomfortable.  My wife wore her mask most of the time.  Some families were trying to social distance to their credit, especially in queues, but most were completely oblivious to it. We'll be doing lateral flow tests tomorrow, as we do every Wednesday and Sunday, and reacting accordingly based on the results, but I do wonder of the thousands of people there, how many others will too.  My guess is not that many going by the attitude of the majority.   

It was our first trip out to somewhere with large crowds, and the whole experience was a little unsettling overall having spent the past 20 months avoiding large crowds.    

[Archied]

5 hours ago, Stive Pesley said:

so what do you suggest should be the alternative? I'm not sure it's exactly "brushed under the carpet" - you've literally posted a video of it being discussed on a national TV channel, and I see it being discussed everywhere by those who seem to spend their lives being outraged online about one thing or another

Not much effort going into researching and publishing daily scare stats of the other side of the coin though , mind you I think it may cost money rather than make money , third jab on the way

[Archied]

3 hours ago, BucksRam said:

After some recent soul searching, the wife and I took our kids to Chessington World of Adventure yesterday mainly because they'd been crying out to do something "exciting" and we weren't going abroad as most of their friends were.  Have to say by early afternoon the place was heaving and even I, fairly relaxed these days (rightly or wrongly) having been double-shot, started to feel a bit uncomfortable.  My wife wore her mask most of the time.  Some families were trying to social distance to their credit, especially in queues, but most were completely oblivious to it. We'll be doing lateral flow tests tomorrow, as we do every Wednesday and Sunday, and reacting accordingly based on the results, but I do wonder of the thousands of people there, how many others will too.  My guess is not that many going by the attitude of the majority.   

It was our first trip out to somewhere with large crowds, and the whole experience was a little unsettling overall having spent the past 20 months avoiding large crowds.    

Amazing how quickly and easily fear of normal living can be instilled