The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, Albert said:

It's not about zero deaths necessarily, it's about cases creating more cases. When you allow some, you get more, so the Covid zero approach protects lives and livelihoods at the same time. 

Unless you remain locked down forever though there will always be cases and there will always be deaths - 100s of them, as there are with flu. 

It may only be half as likely, but vaccinated people are still catching and passing on covid to others.  At some point covid will spread throughout Australia and people will die unless you are happy to live life under permanent restrictions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/delta-variant-renders-herd-immunity-from-covid-mythical

 

1 hour ago, Albert said:

Authoritarian implies that it's something that the government is driving, in any case, when this move towards Covid zero policies in Australia was driven by what the electorates wanted. WA's government is hugely popular, and won 53/59 seats earlier this year in their election, 59.9% of the popular vote, and 69.7% on two party preferred. 

And people voted for the Nazi Party, it didn't stop them being authoritarian ? 

Not everyone in Australia is happy with the restrictions; 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-thousands-march-in-sydney-against-latest-lockdown-restrictions-amid-surge-in-coronavirus-cases-12362740

* Fortunately the very fair and resonable Australia Govt haven't drafted in the military to police the streets, used drones to watch people from the skies, redrafted public health orders to 'work for the police rather than the public' and introduced a series of fines to keep you in your place.  

*see previous tweets posted on pages 193/194.

[Albert]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

How have you concluded this out of interest?

Covid zero requires minimal restrictions most of the time. For example, I've been in lockdown for 10 days in the last year. The economy didn't need to stop, and consumer confidence is high overall. You don't have to worry about catching Covid when going out if it's not there in the first place. 

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, Albert said:

Covid zero requires minimal restrictions most of the time. For example, I've been in lockdown for 10 days in the last year. The economy didn't need to stop, and consumer confidence is high overall. You don't have to worry about catching Covid when going out if it's not there in the first place. 

Thats because Australia have never had many cases.

A Covid zero in the UK does not protect livelihoods, as we have already seen.

[Albert]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Unless you remain locked down forever though there will always be cases and there will always be deaths - 100s of them, as there are with flu. 

The point with Australia's approach is that you can open up once people are vaccinated, which will suppress spread without the need of broad lockdowns, etc. 

Interesting to talk about '100s of deaths' given the UK is running at over 1000 in less than 2 weeks. 

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

It may only be half as likely, but vaccinated people are still catching and passing on covid to others.  At some point covid will spread throughout Australia and people will die unless you are happy to live life under permanent restrictions.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/delta-variant-renders-herd-immunity-from-covid-mythical

The longterm picture is still developing, but again, the aim is to control the disease for the the time being, get everyone vaccinated, then move away from using lockdowns, etc. 

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

And people voted for the Nazi Party, it didn't stop them being authoritarian ? 

They didn't actually. They were a minority party that seized further power through taking advantage of existing emergency powers. Their worst actions were not directly supported by people either, while the whole point is that our approach is vastly popular, so much so that a government against the strategy has been forced into it after they messed up trying to go the UK way. 

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Not everyone in Australia is happy with the restrictions; 

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-thousands-march-in-sydney-against-latest-lockdown-restrictions-amid-surge-in-coronavirus-cases-12362740

There are always nutters in every country. The lockdown protests are broadly unpopular in Australia. 

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

* Fortunately the very fair and resonable Australia Govt haven't drafted in the military to police the streets, used drones to watch people from the skies, redrafted public health orders to 'work for the police rather than the public' and introduced a series of fines to keep you in your place.  

*see previous tweets posted on pages 193/194.

People are broadly in favour of fines etc, as most hate that selfish actions of a few can ruin it for everyone. 

[Albert]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Thats because Australia have never had many cases.

A Covid zero in the UK does not protect livelihoods, as we have already seen.

We have had some fairly sizeable outbreaks actually. The difference was that we stuck to this approach, rather than chickening out and sacrificing people instead. 

[maxjam]

2 minutes ago, Albert said:

The point with Australia's approach is that you can open up once people are vaccinated, which will suppress spread without the need of broad lockdowns, etc. 

Interesting to talk about '100s of deaths' given the UK is running at over 1000 in less than 2 weeks. 

Exactly, and we're opening back up.  At some point you have to either live with the risks of covid or live with live under restriction.  Australia will have to come to that conclusion at some point as well.

 

4 minutes ago, Albert said:

They didn't actually. They were a minority party that seized further power through taking advantage of existing emergency powers. Their worst actions were not directly supported by people either, while the whole point is that our approach is vastly popular, so much so that a government against the strategy has been forced into it after they messed up trying to go the UK way. 

A lot of people did vote for the nazi's though, approx 20% - but it was just a general point, people do vote for oppressive regimes and authoriarian regimes are very good at silencing the voice of dissenters. 

 

9 minutes ago, Albert said:

There are always nutters in every country. The lockdown protests are broadly unpopular in Australia. 

Nutters because you don't agree with them?  A quick google search returned numerous articles re. protests and rising resentment in Australia - as there are in many countries tbh.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sydney-australia-anti-lockdown-protests-b1889736.html

 

11 minutes ago, Albert said:

People are broadly in favour of fines etc, as most hate that selfish actions of a few can ruin it for everyone. 

I'm glad that everyone is settling into their new normal of being watched over by the military, having drones patrolling the skies, being subject to random spot checks in your house and being subject large fines if you reach the end of your tether and dare to go outside to sit in the park.  Must be lovely ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8115329/Police-conduct-random-checks-thousands-Australians-coronavirus-quarantine-amid-fines-threat.html

Lets not forget the arrest of a pregnant woman in front of her children for daring to promote an anti-lockdown protest online;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-54007824

Or Facebook posts that can cost you $11k fines;

https://au.news.yahoo.com/facebook-post-lockdown-protest-11000-fine-080358345.html

Its no wonder most people are happy with restrictions, the gestapo will be round for you if you object ? 

[Eddie]

20 minutes ago, Albert said:

We have had some fairly sizeable outbreaks actually. The difference was that we stuck to this approach, rather than chickening out and sacrificing people instead. 

It amazes me how the 'Deflecticons' pounce gleefully on ANY news about Australian lockdowns, the different approach taken in the antipodes compared to our own, citing deaths and damage to the economy when, during the entire 18 months of the pandemic, Australia and New Zealand lost fewer lives in total than we did on any single day in January this year, when we were running at an average of 1,000 deaths per day. It's the same with cases - the total number of cases in both countries in all are still fewer than 40,000 - a number comparable to our current daily rate.

[G STAR RAM]

39 minutes ago, Albert said:

We have had some fairly sizeable outbreaks actually. The difference was that we stuck to this approach, rather than chickening out and sacrificing people instead. 

According to Google, Australia has had 38k cases in total, the UK had pretty much double that in 1 day.

Comparison is futile.

[maxjam]

26 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It amazes me how the 'Deflecticons' pounce gleefully on ANY news about Australian lockdowns, the different approach taken in the antipodes compared to our own, citing deaths and damage to the economy when, during the entire 18 months of the pandemic, Australia and New Zealand lost fewer lives in total than we did on any single day in January this year, when we were running at an average of 1,000 deaths per day. It's the same with cases - the total number of cases in both countries in all are still fewer than 40,000 - a number comparable to our current daily rate.

I'm not sure anyone is pouncing gleefully tbh.  I might be giving Albert a poke in a ribs as is customary between the Poms and the Aussies but there is no doubting they have had great success in keeping their covid deaths low - however it is also not unfair to question at what cost.

This article was from January this year, and the Australian Govt has since introduced increasingly draconian measures...

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-risks-to-australias-democracy/

And tbf,  I share similar concerns about the UK regarding the potential introduction of vaccine passports.

[Albert]

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Exactly, and we're opening back up.  At some point you have to either live with the risks of covid or live with live under restriction.  Australia will have to come to that conclusion at some point as well.

At some point shouldn't mean while 40% of your population remains vulnerable I wouldn't think. 

Ironically, of course, the whole point of Covid-zero is that we're really not living under much in the way of restrictions at all. The UK, on the other hand, is 'out of restrictions', but consumer confidence, etc, will take a hit for years to come, particularly given cases, hospitalisations, and deaths are climbing again sadly.

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

A lot of people did vote for the nazi's though, approx 20% - but it was just a general point, people do vote for oppressive regimes and authoriarian regimes are very good at silencing the voice of dissenters. 

Honestly, a similar number of people in many countries are voting that way even now. It wasn't a vote for an oppressively regime though, it was a vote for an ideological group. 

People aren't being oppressed by asking for restrictions, it is they themselves putting them there. Oppression is where it is being done to control the population, as opposed to being done by the population to fight a common foe.  

I do find it funny that the Murdoch propaganda machine is so wedded to this narrative though. 

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Nutters because you don't agree with them?  A quick google search returned numerous articles re. protests and rising resentment in Australia - as there are in many countries tbh.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/sydney-australia-anti-lockdown-protests-b1889736.html

The polls, etc, don't back that position. Every society has fringe elements, but on the ground, and through the polls, it damn clear that Covid-zero has broad wide reaching support here.

...and yes, I would argue that people who march the streets claiming that lockdowns, vaccines, etc don't work, while waving Q Anon flags, etc, are nutters. I would argue that people who literally try to pick fights with police horses are nutters. I would argue that people, committing crimes on cameras, but out of spite are not wearing face coverings, likely the only time in their lives they'd do such a thing without one, are nutters.  

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'm glad that everyone is settling into their new normal of being watched over by the military, having drones patrolling the skies, being subject to random spot checks in your house and being subject large fines if you reach the end of your tether and dare to go outside to sit in the park.  Must be lovely ?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8115329/Police-conduct-random-checks-thousands-Australians-coronavirus-quarantine-amid-fines-threat.html

No military here.

The point in NSW is that the defense forces are assisting the police etc. It's not armed military forces marching the streets.

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Lets not forget the arrest of a pregnant woman in front of her children for daring to promote an anti-lockdown protest online;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-54007824

Yes, committing crimes gets you arrested. Funny that. 

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Or Facebook posts that can cost you $11k fines;

https://au.news.yahoo.com/facebook-post-lockdown-protest-11000-fine-080358345.html

Its no wonder most people are happy with restrictions, the gestapo will be round for you if you object ? 

The larger fines, etc, have broad support, as again, people aren't fans of selfish actions. Societies bring in such laws, as societies make decisions about how they are governed. It's hardly complicated. 

Imagine people questioning other laws by similar arguments. 

"Watch this video of police arresting a mother in front of her children just for driving a stolen car?! WHAT IS SOCIETY COMING TO?!" 

25 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It amazes me how the 'Deflecticons' pounce gleefully on ANY news about Australian lockdowns, the different approach taken in the antipodes compared to our own, citing deaths and damage to the economy when, during the entire 18 months of the pandemic, Australia and New Zealand lost fewer lives in total than we did on any single day in January this year, when we were running at an average of 1,000 deaths per day. It's the same with cases - the total number of cases in both countries in all are still fewer than 40,000 - a number comparable to our current daily rate.

It's like how the then American president was seemingly gleeful discussing the news of New Zealand's Covid-free run breaking last year, basically discussing it like their Covid-zero days were over. They were wrong, of course, but it's an interesting attitude. 

23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

According to Google, Australia has had 38k cases in total, the UK had pretty much double that in 1 day.

Comparison is futile.

...mostly because the UK just kept letting it burn through. Per capita, the Victorian outbreak was the equivalent of about 6000 per day in the UK, which the UK has been under many times since the first wave. The UK could have gone down the same road, it chose not to. 

[Albert]

12 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'm not sure anyone is pouncing gleefully tbh.  I might be giving Albert a poke in a ribs as is customary between the Poms and the Aussies but there is no doubting they have had great success in keeping their covid deaths low - however it is also not unfair to question at what cost.

The cost was our economy being one of the best performing globally. 

12 minutes ago, maxjam said:

This article was from January this year, and the Australian Govt has since introduced increasingly draconian measures...

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-risks-to-australias-democracy/

And tbf,  I share similar concerns about the UK regarding the potential introduction of vaccine passports.

Bit of a weird article, that seems to lack an understanding for how Australia's political system actually functions. That's not really the topic of this thread though. 

I do like the idea of vaccine passports being seen as a thin end of the wedge for some kind of attack on democracy, given that vaccine requirements for travel, etc, existed long before the pandemic in many regions, etc. 

[G STAR RAM]

27 minutes ago, Albert said:

At some point shouldn't mean while 40% of your population remains vulnerable I wouldn't think. 

Ironically, of course, the whole point of Covid-zero is that we're really not living under much in the way of restrictions at all. The UK, on the other hand, is 'out of restrictions', but consumer confidence, etc, will take a hit for years to come, particularly given cases, hospitalisations, and deaths are climbing again sadly.

Can only talk for our business (leisure and tourism), the seaside towns are packed out, revenues up by about 40%, all of this despite being massively understaffed due to the pingdemic.

[Albert]

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

Can only talk for our business (leisure and tourism), the seaside towns are packed out, revenues up by about 40%, all of this despite being massively understaffed due to the pingdemic.

They should be at the moment given the initial mood around opening up, and the messaging around it, but the overall measure of consumer confidence will be what follows this, particularly while hospital beds, etc, are filling again. 

[maxjam]

7 minutes ago, Albert said:

At some point shouldn't mean while 40% of your population remains vulnerable I wouldn't think. 

I'm not the one suggesting you do that.  Mark McGowan is suggesting you might keep some restrictions even after hitting your 80% vaccination target.

 

7 minutes ago, Albert said:

No military here.

The point in NSW is that the defense forces are assisting the police etc. It's not armed military forces marching the streets.

Yes, committing crimes gets you arrested. Funny that. 

So you're alright, thats fine then.  Other parts of Australia are living under different conditions and have suffered 100+ day lockdowns.  

If most people are not concerned about having the military police your streets,  public health orders redrafted to favour the police not the public,  drones watching over you,  spot checks whilst in your own home,  excessive fines for having an opinion or protesting against Govt policy etc then it will be very interesting to see where you are in 12 months time.

Whilst I know China - Australia relations aren't great atm, it is funny to see China calling out Australia for their authoritarian restrictions;

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9853931/Australias-draconian-restrictions-mocked-Beijing-Sydney-used-police-helicopters.html

 

12 minutes ago, Albert said:

The larger fines, etc, have broad support, as again, people aren't fans of selfish actions. Societies bring in such laws, as societies make decisions about how they are governed. It's hardly complicated. 

Imagine people questioning other laws by similar arguments. 

"Watch this video of police arresting a mother in front of her children just for driving a stolen car?! WHAT IS SOCIETY COMING TO?!" 

She wasn't driving a stolen car though was she, she was in her own home protesting an anti-lockdown protest online.  Is protesting the Govt illegal now?

 

15 minutes ago, Albert said:

The cost was our economy being one of the best performing globally. 

So is Swedens and they are hovering around 0 daily deaths now.

 

16 minutes ago, Albert said:

I do like the idea of vaccine passports being seen as a thin end of the wedge for some kind of attack on democracy, given that vaccine requirements for travel, etc, existed long before the pandemic in many regions, etc. 

What about to enter a nightclub, a pub or a football match?  What about attending educational facilities?  What about to enter a supermarket or use public transport?  If you want to travel abroad to a country with 'disease X' then thats your personal choice.  I shouldn't need to show my papers to travel around locally. 

TBH this debate could carry on, I don't know what will happen in Australia, I'm thousands of miles away and have never been (unlikely to go now as well cos you've shut up shop ?) but it will be interesting to see where we all are in a years time. 

I wonder whether we'll have our freedoms back and have returned to pre-pandemic life or whether we'll be living under some kind of track and trace regime that will imho almost certainly evolve over time to become ever more authoritarian - all for our benefit and protection of course...

[maxjam]

7 minutes ago, Albert said:

They should be at the moment given the initial mood around opening up, and the messaging around it, but the overall measure of consumer confidence will be what follows this, particularly while hospital beds, etc, are filling again. 

Why is that a problem? 

Anyone that wants the jab has almost certainly had it by now.  Unless we mandate people have to be vaccinated life must go ahead and some people will die.  The alternative is was remain locked down forever.  Mass vaccinate for covid and flu every year.  Ban smoking and alcohol and set up some kind of 'National Socialist League of the Reich for Physical Exercise'.  

Surely people have to be free to live life as they choose?  If they don't want to get vaccinated, drink or smoke themselves into an early grave then ultimately that is their choice.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Can only talk for our business (leisure and tourism), the seaside towns are packed out, revenues up by about 40%, all of this despite being massively understaffed due to the pingdemic.

As I understand it from someone who does this line of work - hotel- they aren't going back to jobs as the majority of staff rent in coastal areas and this has become unmanageable as no affordable rental property is available.   Mostly due to holiday let conversion and people moving to coastal towns and paying hugely inflated 6-12 month rentals while looking to buy.  Each property in Cornwall for example has 70 potential renters as an average.  

[G STAR RAM]

13 minutes ago, Albert said:

They should be at the moment given the initial mood around opening up, and the messaging around it, but the overall measure of consumer confidence will be what follows this, particularly while hospital beds, etc, are filling again. 

Less than 6000 in hospital, compared to 40000 at the peak, and admissions remaining pretty flat.

The only thing that confidence may drop in now is the effectiveness of the vaccine but given that 80% of the adult population have done all they can, I do not see consumer confidence changing much now, a good measure of this would be how many people are continuing to wear masks and let me tell you, its not many.

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

As I understand it from someone who does this line of work - hotel- they aren't going back to jobs as the majority of staff rent in coastal areas and this has become unmanageable as no affordable rental property is available.   Mostly due to holiday let conversion and people moving to coastal towns and paying hugely inflated 6-12 month rentals while looking to buy.  Each property in Cornwall for example has 70 potential renters as an average.  

That certainly is a factor, along with the B word and not so many European staff returning since Covid.

[Stive Pesley]

38 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Surely people have to be free to live life as they choose?  

Of course - unless it harms others. That's where the real debate lies. Boils down to a consensus on how many people/which people are being harmed before it's considered worthy of taking action. Which all depends on the individuals level of selfishness and lack of empathy

 

 

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, Stive Pesley said:

Of course - unless it harms others. That's where the real debate lies. Boils down to a consensus on how many people/which people are being harmed before it's considered worthy of taking action. Which all depends on the individuals level of selfishness and lack of empathy

It has nothing to do with selfishness or empathy, over 75% of all UK adults are now double jabbed with who knows how many more having had one jab and awaiting their second.  Virtually everyone has had the chance to be jabbed now, if they have declined for whatever reason, thats on them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58162318

The jab does a very good job of preventing the worst that covid can throw at you but doesn't do a great job of preventing tranmission therefore there really are only 2 choices - open back up and return to normal or live life under restrictions, what level of restriction is open to debate. 

Given the vaccine uptake and opportunity for everyone that wants the jab to have had it, I'm all for returning to normal.