EFL appeal

[Carnero]

4 minutes ago, rynny said:

We have already been found guilty of not making the change of our amortisation policy clear enough to the EFL. The appeal is against us using the amortisation method that we use, and the EFL wants us to use a straight line way like every other club. 

The appeal was against the lack of punishment for not making our policy clear enough, not the actual policy which is perfectly legal and is in accordance with the financial reporting standards (FRS12)... which is why the EFL lost the original case.

[rynny]

4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

It was the punishment he was suggesting we were due if found guilty - points deduction.

Yes, I know, I was correcting this part;

2 hours ago, StarterForTen said:

My take is that the complaint surrounds how the change in amortisation policy was incorrectly reported, not an issue with the policy itself.

As I said, we've already been found guilty of this in the original hearing, the appeal is about wanting us to change back to the straight line amortisation method, like all the other teams. 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, rynny said:

Yes, I know, I was correcting this part;

As I said, we've already been found guilty of this in the original hearing, the appeal is about wanting us to change back to the straight line amortisation method, like all the other teams. 

No, the appeal is based on us not clearly defining how our amortisation policy works

[rynny]

8 minutes ago, Carnero said:

The appeal was against the lack of punishment for not making our policy clear enough, not the actual policy which is perfectly legal and is in accordance with the financial reporting standards (FRS12)... which is why the EFL lost the original case.

https://www.efl.com/news/2020/september/efl-statement-Derby-county/

The appeal is specific to the second charge only, which considered the Club’s policy regarding the amortisation of intangible assets.

That reads to me like they are appealing the whole of the amortisation policy. 

@Ghost of Clough

Edited April 23, 2021 by rynny
Add @ in

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, rynny said:

https://www.efl.com/news/2020/september/efl-statement-Derby-county/

The appeal is specific to the second charge only, which considered the Club’s policy regarding the amortisation of intangible assets.

That reads to me like they are appealing the whole of the amortisation policy. 

I recall something specifically referring to the 5th particular of the 2nd charge 

[rynny]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

I recall something specifically referring to the 5th particular of the 2nd charge 

I've looked at our statement and it is the same, about the 2nd charge, and doesn't mention any individual charge. 

[Ghost of Clough]

4 minutes ago, rynny said:

I've looked at our statement and it is the same, about the 2nd charge, and doesn't mention any individual charge. 

Yeah, I had a quick look myself and I'm scratching my head as to where I saw it. I suppose there is a chance that conclusion was arrived at based on what could be appealled with any chance of a punishment being handed out.

The second charge was broken down in to 5 particulars. The EFL withdrew the 1st of those.

2. EFL felt FRS 102 means amortisation of players should be on as straight line basis. Dismissed and no chance of winning on appeal.

3. ERVs (assigning an estimated value prior to the expiry of a contract). Due to us not disclosing the policy clearly, the EFL misunderstood, thinking it was an assigned value at the end of the contract. Dismissed, and no chance of winning on appeal.

4. Reliability (not certainty) of ERVs. I suppose there's a chance this one could be overturned. However, the appeal is based on the evidence previously provided, and whether the verdict reached is fair based on that evidence. FRS 102 states 'expectation', rather than the EFLs case of 'entitlement'. For example, despite Bielik's injuries, we may still expect to sell him for £6m. It doesn't mean we will get £6m.

5. Disclosure of policy. We were already found guilty of this one. If appealing the punishment, it should be noted that it had no impact on our P&S position, and therefore can not be punished for failing it. That means no points deduction. It's a fine at most for deliberately misleading the EFL (due to not responding to their queries on the matter).

 

Summary: if it is the entire charge, there is zero chance of #1-3 beijg any different to the decisions already made. It would take a massive Gibson to overturn #4. A maximum punishment of a 'slap on the wrist for #5.

[Oldben]

An unlikely thought occurred to me.

The efl were not happy about losing to Derby over the stadium situation.

Is it possible than rather than forcing through the appeal, and deducting 12 points, they instead await the outcome of derbys season.

Delay the take over and place Derby in a position and put Derby in a situation where they simply don't have the opportunity given the time remaining to undertake the massive rebuild the club needs to do with team before the start of next season.

Already other teams in the championship are looking at putting deals together for players, the delayed take over is hurting the club.

 

[GenBr]

2 hours ago, Oldben said:

An unlikely thought occurred to me.

The efl were not happy about losing to Derby over the stadium situation.

Is it possible than rather than forcing through the appeal, and deducting 12 points, they instead await the outcome of derbys season.

Delay the take over and place Derby in a position and put Derby in a situation where they simply don't have the opportunity given the time remaining to undertake the massive rebuild the club needs to do with team before the start of next season.

Already other teams in the championship are looking at putting deals together for players, the delayed take over is hurting the club.

 

They let the fake sheikh through no problem even though he had no money. We should be grateful that they are actually doing some more in depth checks this time. 

Regarding points deductions they can implement them when they want anyway. Their intention is to cause the most damage and they are allowed to await the outcome of the current season before deciding when to implement it. If we do go down anyway for example they wont give us a points deduction this year because it will be meaningless - they will just save it for next year.

[rynny]

2 hours ago, Oldben said:

An unlikely thought occurred to me.

The efl were not happy about losing to Derby over the stadium situation.

Is it possible than rather than forcing through the appeal, and deducting 12 points, they instead await the outcome of derbys season.

Delay the take over and place Derby in a position and put Derby in a situation where they simply don't have the opportunity given the time remaining to undertake the massive rebuild the club needs to do with team before the start of next season.

Already other teams in the championship are looking at putting deals together for players, the delayed take over is hurting the club.

 

 

16 minutes ago, GenBr said:

They let the fake sheikh through no problem even though he had no money. We should be grateful that they are actually doing some more in depth checks this time. 

Regarding points deductions they can implement them when they want anyway. Their intention is to cause the most damage and they are allowed to await the outcome of the current season before deciding when to implement it. If we do go down anyway for example they wont give us a points deduction this year because it will be meaningless - they will just save it for next year.

They can't give us a point deduction this season if they win the appeal now, they have to do it by a certain date in March. Any possible deductions will have to be implemented next season. 

[GenBr]

Just now, rynny said:

 

They can't give us a point deduction this season if they win the appeal now, they have to do it by a certain date in March. Any possible deductions will have to be implemented next season. 

Quote

 

12.3.1  during the Normal Playing Season but prior to 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March, the points deduction shall apply immediately;

12.3.2  during the Normal Playing Season but after 5.00pm on the fourth Thursday in March, Regulation 12.4 shall apply; and

12.3.3  outside the Normal Playing Season, the points deduction shall apply in respect of the following Season such that the Club starts that Season on minus 12 points (including in the National League if appropriate).

12.4  Where the circumstances set out in Regulation 12.3.2 apply and at the end of that Season, having regard to the number of championship points awarded (ignoring any potential deduction):

12.4.1  the Club would be relegated in accordance with Regulation 10.1.2(b) or 7.7, the points deduction will apply in the next following Season (including in the National League if appropriate); or

12.4.2  the Club would not be relegated as aforesaid, the points deduction will apply in that Season and Regulation 10.1.2(b) or 7.7 will then apply (if appropriate) following imposition of the points deduction.

 

Had a look at the rules and if I'm reading it correctly they can still apply a points deduction this season, but only if it doesn't relegate us. Unless its a really small points deduction I guess that means it will be implemented next season if we do get one.

 

[Comrade 86]

28 minutes ago, GenBr said:

Regarding points deductions they can implement them when they want anyway. Their intention is to cause the most damage and they are allowed to await the outcome of the current season before deciding when to implement it. If we do go down anyway for example they wont give us a points deduction this year because it will be meaningless - they will just save it for next year.

Not the case bud. The deadline for any points deduction this season has long since elapsed, so were a points deduction even a possible outcome, it'd have to be next season and not this one.

Furthermore, the crux of the EFL case seems to be that we failed inform them of our amortisation processes, not that there was an issue with them (our methodology has already been confirmed to be both fair and legal) and in so much, a points deduction wouldn't really be an option for either season anyway.

I really think this has been done to absolute death over recent weeks, so maybe we should just move on now? We've currently got bigger fish to fry.

Edited April 29, 2021 by 86 Hair Islands
typo

[duncanjwitham]

1 hour ago, GenBr said:

Had a look at the rules and if I'm reading it correctly they can still apply a points deduction this season, but only if it doesn't relegate us. Unless its a really small points deduction I guess that means it will be implemented next season if we do get one.

 

You're reading it backwards.  If we don't get relegated this season (before any deductions are applied), the deduction is still applied this season (and would almost certainly relegate us).  If we do go down this season (before deductions), any deductions are applied next season.

It's done this way to avoid clubs forcing admin early and taking the points deduction when they're already down and it doesn't affect anything.

[GenBr]

56 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Not the case bud. The deadline for any points deduction this season has long since elapsed, so were a points deduction even a possible outcome, it'd have to be next season and not this one.

Furthermore, the crux of the EFL case seems to be that we failed inform them of our amortisation processes, not that there was an issue with them (our methodology has already been confirmed to be both fair and legal) and in so much, a points deduction wouldn't really be an option for either season anyway.

I really think this has been done to absolute death over recent weeks, so maybe we should just move on now? We've currently got bigger fish to fry.

Read my second post. Maybe I am misreading the rules, but they can still give us a points deduction this season as long as it doesn't relegate us.

You are entitled to your opinion, but a points deduction is still very much possible and I'll discuss what I want regardless of how much it has been discussed over recent weeks - that is the point of the forum. Until the EFL verdict is finalised you are going to have to live with the consequences being discussed on here.

[GenBr]

2 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

You're reading it backwards.  If we don't get relegated this season (before any deductions are applied), the deduction is still applied this season (and would almost certainly relegate us).  If we do go down this season (before deductions), any deductions are applied next season.

It's done this way to avoid clubs forcing admin early and taking the points deduction when they're already down and it doesn't affect anything.

So they can still give us a points deduction this year then?

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, GenBr said:

So they can still give us a points deduction this year then?

Yes. If we aren't relegated at the end of the season, then any potential deduction would apply this season (regardless of the size off the deduction).  "Normal Playing Season" is only up until the final league game though (not including playoffs etc), so they would have to award the deduction before the final game.  I have no idea how any potential appeals (if they are permitted) would affect that though.

[Sparkle]

7 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yes. If we aren't relegated at the end of the season, then any potential deduction would apply this season (regardless of the size off the deduction).  "Normal Playing Season" is only up until the final league game though (not including playoffs etc), so they would have to award the deduction before the final game.  I have no idea how any potential appeals (if they are permitted) would affect that though.

We can’t get a points deduction over the appeal based on what it was in my opinion but we sure could if our accounts ever came out but you would have to assume the EFL are aware of what they would be look like!

[Curtains]

14 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yes. If we aren't relegated at the end of the season, then any potential deduction would apply this season (regardless of the size off the deduction).  "Normal Playing Season" is only up until the final league game though (not including playoffs etc), so they would have to award the deduction before the final game.  I have no idea how any potential appeals (if they are permitted) would affect that though.

We won’t get a point deduction this season now.  
 

It’s too late IMO .

We just need to concentrate on staying up 

[Oldben]

1 hour ago, GenBr said:

Had a look at the rules and if I'm reading it correctly they can still apply a points deduction this season, but only if it doesn't relegate us. Unless its a really small points deduction I guess that means it will be implemented next season if we do get one.

 

Points deduction  aside it then comes to down to, if Derby receive a 12 points deduction regardless of what league the club is playing in, the club would need to get a lot of wins in the next season to stay up never mind challenging for promotion.

It would be a similar situation to Sheffield Wednesday this season and they via lucky appeal had a reduction from a 12 point penalty to a 6 point penalty.

Would I want Rooney managing Derby in those circumstances, absolutely not based on his performances as a manager to date.

Some might say look at what he has had to work with in terms of injuries and players but its a bad manager that blames his tools

[Curtains]

Where is all this point deduction stuff coming from. 
 

No chance of a points deduction