George Thorne

[Cam the Ram]

18 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

What is/was the clause? 
 

surely he received a printed copy of his contract? Does he hold his legal advisor(s)/agent to account for whatever it was? 

Mel had to pay West Brom 15k per Championship appearance he made. George didn't specifically say whether that only applies to Derby Championship appearances or just Championship appearances in general, but it sounds like it would also apply to the latter as he was priced out of a loan move to QPR. He claimed he spent a whole transfer window trying to sort out a move to QPR on loan who had McClaren in charge but Derby wanted way too much money for it, then on deadline day he was presented with the chance to go on loan to a League 1 club who would likely be in a relegation battle. He then had to train with the kids and it was over a year later he was finally told of the clause that had caused his omission from the team. 

[Red Ram]

21 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

What is/was the clause? 
 

surely he received a printed copy of his contract? Does he hold his legal advisor(s)/agent to account for whatever it was? 

Here's a summary of the key points of the Podcast, including details about the clause. This is from memory (with a bit of date checking) so many not be 100% accurate.

    • Early in his career at WBA, Thorne has started to establish himself and was in negotiations for a new contract. However when he did his ACL at West Brom they took his contract offer off the table.
    • When he wants to come on loan to Derby in January 2014, WBA say they'll only sanction the move if he signs a new deal the terms of which are nowhere near those of the contract previously offered. He reluctantly signs so that he can secure the loan move to Derby and play some football.
    • At Derby on loan he has to wait until John Eustace gets suspended to get his chance of first team football. Whilst waiting for his opportunity, he's asked by McClaren (via Paul Simpson), at very short notice to play for the Under-23s to 'get him up to speed' on what was scheduled to be a weekend off for the first team.  Thorne's perspective is that he's come on loan to be part of the first team squad, not the Under-23s and anyway he  has already made firm arrangements for the weekend with some of his friends and so refuses to play. Keogh and Lee Grant both let him know that they thought he was out of order!
    • When he eventually get his chance in the first team, Thorne is, as we all remember, absolutely exceptional and keeps his place in the side. The team spirit in the squad was very strong  (elsewhere Thorne has referred to  Derby as having a 'unique dressing room' at that time) and Thorne said that by the time of the play-off final he no longer felt like a loan player due to the bond he had with the rest of the squad. After *somehow* losing the play-off final, Thorne's agent asked him what he wanted to happen over the summer. Thorne's response was emphatic and unequivocal - "just get me to Derby".
    • Thorne did everything conceivable to make the move happen, submitting transfer request after transfer request ('hundreds') to West Brom and even, on the advice of his agent, going so far as to kick balls away in training etc. Eventually a deal was agreed with WBA but unbeknown to Thorne at the time, the deal included the clause that Derby had to pay West Brom £15k every time Thorne made a first team appearance. Incidentally, Thorne says he didn't really have a full medical when he signed for Derby. He just met up with Neil Sullivan at a hotel who more or less just said "hello again George".
    • Not long after signing, Thorne ruptured his ACL again in a meaningless pre-season friendly on a poor quality pitch and faced a long spell on the side-lines. He returned to the first team towards the end of the 2014/2015 season for a handful of appearances.
    • Thorne made a direct connection between Derby's loss of from after Christmas and McClaren's failure to dismiss persistent speculation about the Newcastle job. He also states that this was the reason why McClaren was ultimately sacked by Mel Morris at the end of that season.
    • Paul Clement took over from McClaren and Thorne made 36 appearances in that season. Thorne's view was that Clement was a fantastic coach but made the mistake of trying to get Derby to play like Real Madrid despite being a Championship side. Nevertheless, when Clement was sacked after Christmas in early 2016 after a winless run of 7 games, Thorne and the rest of the players were absolutely incredulous as they were fifth in the league and still considered themselves serious contenders for automatic promotion. The players were convinced however, that Mel Morris must have a high profile replacement already lined up in order to have made such a decision and were therefore underwhelmed (to say the least) by the appointment of academy coach Darren Wassall. Thorne accepts that, because Wassall wasn't an established manager, not all the players gave him the respect he deserved but also said that Wassall compounded this by making a series of seemingly inexplicably decisions. Snatching a 3-3 draw from the jaws of victory at Rotheram by bringing on two strikers when they were 3-0 up with 15 minutes to go was highlighted as a specific example.
    • Thorne broke his leg on the last match of the season at home to Ipswich, sustaining the worst injury of his career and missed the entire 2016-2017 season. Almost everything that could have gone wrong did go wrong during Thorne's recovery from the double leg break. He was in constant pain and repeatedly told the Derby medical staff there something wasn't right during various stages of his recovery. They reassured him that the pain was to be expected and then later that his now persistent limp was 'psychological' but when Thorne was eventually referred back to the Specialist consultants on a series of occasions, they confirmed that there were serious underlying issues including, metal fittings that were the wrong size, screws that had come loose and an infection in the metal rod inside Thorne's leg, all of which required further surgery and, for the infection, 10 days in hospital on antibiotics. Thorne also felt that prescribed recovery plan during his recuperation placed too much emphasis on weight training. He was reluctant to embark on a fitness programme which would lead to him gaining additional muscle bulk as he was concerned this would impact his mobility. Thorne's view is that injury recovery programmes at football clubs should be more personally tailored to the physique and personal characteristics of the individual player rather than just simply defaulting to weight training.
    • Thorne eventually returned to the first team in 2017/2018 under Gary Rowett. Thorne credits Rowett as being the one manager who gave enough him the time to recover fully from any injuries he incurred, However after what was, by his own admission, a poor performance against Sunderland in March 2018,  Rowett never selected Thorne to play for Derby again.
    • When Rowett left for Stoke and was replaced by Frank Lampard, Thorne did everything he could to ensure he was in top physical condition when he returned for pre-season and says he weighed less than he did when he initially came to Derby on loan in and was fitter than he'd ever been. He was determined to make it impossible for the manager not to select him but after he was the only member of a 23 man squad not to get on the pitch during a pre-season friendly, Thorne went to see Lampard to ask what the problem was. According to Thorne, Lampard was evasive and made what Thorne felt were 'excuses' about him not doing extra voluntary training sessions during pre-season. This would have been on top of the 3 sessions a day they were already doing and Thorne's position was, perhaps understandably, that he was trying to ensure he didn't pick up any more injuries as he didn’t want to 'fall behind the rest of the lads'. Lampard also referenced what were just temporary (daily) fluctuations in Thorne's weight which had, in fact, already resolved themselves by the time of the conversation.
    • Thorne came to the conclusion that he wasn't going to part of Lampard's plans and therefore wanted to play football elsewhere. He was made aware that Steve McClaren, recently appointed by QPR, wanted to sign him on loan and pleaded with Derby to make the deal happen. Derby wanted more money but QPR were under serious financial constraints and stated that they couldn't afford to pay more. Thorne went to see Mel Morris and offered to make up the difference between what Derby wanted and what QPR were offering out of his own wages at a cost to him of £2k per week but Derby refused his offer, insisting they wanted more money directly from QPR. The loan deal didn't happen and Thorne remained at Derby but was excluded from the first team and was left to train with the under-23s (with Martin, Anya and Alex Pearce).
    • A similar sequence of events happened when Lampard departed for Chelsea and was replaced by Philip Cocu. Thorne arrived back for pre-season (according to him) in the best possible physical condition but it became clear to him that he wasn't part of Cocu's plans. Cocu handled the situation much more amicably than Lampard had but told Thorne it would be better for everyone if he found another club. Mel Morris asked to see Thorne at some around this time and told Thorne about the clause in the original deal with WBA which meant that Derby had to pay them £15k every time Thorne played for Derby. Morris explained that Derby could no longer afford these outgoing costs so Thorne could not therefore be part of the first team squad. Thorne was devastated and angry to discover that this was why he had been frozen out for two consecutive seasons in a row as he felt that the club had effectively wasted two years of his footballing career by not making him aware of the full facts of his situation.  
    • Thorne went on load to Luton in Jnaury 2019 and eventually ended up moving from Derby to Oxford United, first on loan in August 2019 and then on a permanent transfer in January 2020 on a short-term contract until the end of the season. He is currently without a club and semi-retired.
    • Finally, Thorne stated that the situation Derby are in now has been 'a long time coming' and that since the QPR play-off final, Morris had spent £30 million on players which he thought most Derby fans would agree had ultimately made the squad weaker rather than stronger.

Obviously this is just Thorne's side of the story and so needs to be understood in that context but the apparent failure to tell him about the clause along with the refusal to let him join up with McClaren at QPR don't, on the face of it, reflect well on the club.

The podcast really is well worth listening to. It's almost like a history of Derby County since just before the QPR play-off final as told from Thorne's personal perspective.

 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Not Thorne-related, but Colin Todd isn’t particularly happy with how the club has treated him, either!

I assume this started before Mel’s time though.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/77L1ysKnrl03anYPOHZaGB?si=BLptuLHdTTmbj0ew0tbXCA

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

2 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Not Thorne-related, but Colin Todd isn’t particularly happy with how the club has treated him, either!

I assume this started before Mel’s time though.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/77L1ysKnrl03anYPOHZaGB?si=BLptuLHdTTmbj0ew0tbXCA

Not sure about that one.  Excellent player for the club, but he was pants as a manager to be honest.   I think Derby have always treated there old players pretty well, certainly the ones who live locally. Particularly Pickering. If he was complaining about old players getting better treatment than him, I'd take the point. But his moan is about previous Derby managers getting tickets to the directors box.

Has he offered his PFA player of the year trophy to the club .  Sure they'd have it if he offered.  Perhaps he's looking to sell it. 

 

[MuespachRam]

On 09/02/2021 at 08:14, Mostyn6 said:

What is/was the clause? 
 

surely he received a printed copy of his contract? Does he hold his legal advisor(s)/agent to account for whatever it was? 

He 100% knew about that clause in his contract, no way that himself and his agent did not know about it....but it is a great excuse he can use.

[Mostyn6]

2 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

He 100% knew about that clause in his contract, no way that himself and his agent did not know about it....but it is a great excuse he can use.

Sounds like it was in the contract between clubs and not his employment contract. 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

22 minutes ago, MuespachRam said:

He 100% knew about that clause in his contract, no way that himself and his agent did not know about it....but it is a great excuse he can use.

Even if he did have knowledge about it, there’s a huge difference between knowing about it and knowing it’s the reason why you’re not in the first team plans.

[RoyMac5]

39 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Even if he did have knowledge about it, there’s a huge difference between knowing about it and knowing it’s the reason why you’re not in the first team plans.

True.

But the elephant in the room here is the fact that post bad injury he wasn't really that good. Why not go on loan to League 1? 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

True.

But the elephant in the room here is the fact that post bad injury he wasn't really that good. Why not go on loan to League 1? 

You’re not wrong.

[MuespachRam]

4 hours ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

Even if he did have knowledge about it, there’s a huge difference between knowing about it and knowing it’s the reason why you’re not in the first team plans.

Yep, I agree with you.....again.!

[San Fran Van Rams]

For me a few big things come out of that interview. Whether it's a biased view from Thorne of his events or not is a another matter but:

- Derby's phsios do not come across well. They properly mucked up Thorne's rehab, didn't even do a proper medical for him when he joined and overall seemed to be a big factor behind his injuries. We've seen a lot of major injuries at Derby and I for one wouldn't be surprised if the medical team were the common theme behind them all.

- We know there was something dodgy about Rush given his sacking etc. The fact that Thorne had that clause points to numerous other players probably falling victim to the same problem. Anya being one, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were many others. Seems like it was all part of the big bet that we'd be promoted quickly and have mega prem money to spend... Wonder what other awful terms we signed...

- Lampards out right lying doesn't come across well. Don't know lamps side of the story and he always seemed 'one of the lads' but the way he cast out thorne wasn't good. Even if it was for money.

- Also thought it interesting that Keogh and Grant gained respect for Thorne when he turned down the U23 game when he first joined. Not sure if who was club captain at the time but it could very well have been Keogh... Doesn't look good for him either.

Glad to have found that podcast and will look forward to listening to more episodes, especially the Johnny Russel and Will Hughes ones!

[AGR]

On 09/02/2021 at 13:56, Red Ram said:

Keogh and Lee Grant both let him know that they thought he was out of order!

 

Just listened to it again to double check, Keogh and Grant were actually on Thorne's side and thought it was hilarious he refused to play for the 23s. I remember thinking that doesn't reflect well on Keogh as a captain when I first listened to it.

[Red Ram]

55 minutes ago, AGR said:

Just listened to it again to double check, Keogh and Grant were actually on Thorne's side and thought it was hilarious he refused to play for the 23s. I remember thinking that doesn't reflect well on Keogh as a captain when I first listened to it.

Not my interpretation at all. I checked too.

"I remember, later on in my Derby career, Keezy and Granty called me and was like 'mate, literally after that we thought you was a belter'. So I was like, yeah, it's understandable innit".

You can tell by Thorne's Intonation that he's acknowledging they had a point.

The much maligned Richard Keogh gets the blame again?‍♂️

[Red Ram]

13 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

Sounds like it was in the contract between clubs and not his employment contract. 

Yes the relevant contract was between the two clubs. When Morris told him about the clause, Thorne couldn't understand it and says to Morris "but you gave me a new deal' at which point Morris reiterated that it was the terms of the deal with WBA that contained the clause. There's no indication one way or the other of whether his agent was aware of the clause but Thorne certainly wasn't.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Red Ram

[AGR]

1 hour ago, Red Ram said:

Not my interpretation at all. I checked too.

"I remember, later on in my Derby career, Keezy and Granty called me and was like 'mate, literally after that we thought you was a belter'. So I was like, yeah, it's understandable innit".

You can tell by Thorne's Intonation that he's acknowledging they had a point.

The much maligned Richard Keogh gets the blame again?‍♂️

Just listened for a third time. He says Keogh and Granty thought he was a 'belter' for that. Him saying 'understandable init' is them agreeing with him for refusing to play and wanting to go out on a free weekend.

Sorry for criticising the club captain for laughing at a young player refusing his manager's orders on his second day at a new club.

[nottingram]

37 minutes ago, AGR said:

Just listened for a third time. He says Keogh and Granty thought he was a 'belter' for that. Him saying 'understandable init' is them agreeing with him for refusing to play and wanting to go out on a free weekend.

Sorry for criticising the club captain for laughing at a young player refusing his manager's orders on his second day at a new club.

I think in this case “belter” is used in a negative sense, as in being a bit of an idiot. Looking back I think Thorne would agree it was idiotic hence “understandable” that they called him a belter.

Might be wrong but that was my take on it. 

[DarkFruitsRam7]

5 hours ago, San Fran Van Rams said:

For me a few big things come out of that interview. Whether it's a biased view from Thorne of his events or not is a another matter but:

- Derby's phsios do not come across well. They properly mucked up Thorne's rehab, didn't even do a proper medical for him when he joined and overall seemed to be a big factor behind his injuries. We've seen a lot of major injuries at Derby and I for one wouldn't be surprised if the medical team were the common theme behind them all.

- We know there was something dodgy about Rush given his sacking etc. The fact that Thorne had that clause points to numerous other players probably falling victim to the same problem. Anya being one, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were many others. Seems like it was all part of the big bet that we'd be promoted quickly and have mega prem money to spend... Wonder what other awful terms we signed...

- Lampards out right lying doesn't come across well. Don't know lamps side of the story and he always seemed 'one of the lads' but the way he cast out thorne wasn't good. Even if it was for money.

- Also thought it interesting that Keogh and Grant gained respect for Thorne when he turned down the U23 game when he first joined. Not sure if who was club captain at the time but it could very well have been Keogh... Doesn't look good for him either.

Glad to have found that podcast and will look forward to listening to more episodes, especially the Johnny Russel and Will Hughes ones!

Agree with a lot of this, though I'm not sure on the Rush bit. I don't know whether £15,000 per appearance is particularly unusual in a transfer, on the assumption that those payments would have stopped once he hit a certain amount of appearances. It seems like a fairly standard way of structuring a deal (in return for a lower lump sum), and it probably worked in our favour considering his injury problems!

Edited February 11, 2021 by DarkFruitsRam7

[DarkFruitsRam7]

3 hours ago, Red Ram said:

Not my interpretation at all. I checked too.

"I remember, later on in my Derby career, Keezy and Granty called me and was like 'mate, literally after that we thought you was a belter'. So I was like, yeah, it's understandable innit".

You can tell by Thorne's Intonation that he's acknowledging they had a point.

The much maligned Richard Keogh gets the blame again?‍♂️

 

1 hour ago, AGR said:

Just listened for a third time. He says Keogh and Granty thought he was a 'belter' for that. Him saying 'understandable init' is them agreeing with him for refusing to play and wanting to go out on a free weekend.

Sorry for criticising the club captain for laughing at a young player refusing his manager's orders on his second day at a new club.

 

1 hour ago, nottingram said:

I think in this case “belter” is used in a negative sense, as in being a bit of an idiot. Looking back I think Thorne would agree it was idiotic hence “understandable” that they called him a belter.

Might be wrong but that was my take on it. 

I've never heard 'belter' used in a negative sense. I presume Thorne is suggesting it was understandable that he'd rather go on the piss than play for the U23s.

[nottingram]

31 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

 

 

I've never heard 'belter' used in a negative sense. I presume Thorne is suggesting it was understandable that he'd rather go on the piss than play for the U23s.

Urban Dictionary seems to say it could be either, but in my head the whole story fits a lot better if it is used in a negative way in this context. Can’t imagine anyone in the squad taking too kindly to it really.

Anyway, doesn’t really matter. Pretty obviously a really stupid thing to do when you first join a club.

[Mostyn6]

I dunno @nottingram, maybe Capn Keogh thought getting hammered in Allestree after bowling was a belter of an idea!