Abu Derby County

[CornwallRam]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

I don't know whether you are right about the EFL being able to re-open the investigation, but given that they have decided not to appeal the IDC decision in this respect, I would guess you are wrong and that they would not legally have a leg to stand on if they tried to.

What you are getting completely wrong is the revaluation issue, as you do not seem to undestand how they work.

The stadium was valued sometime prior to June 2018 and would have been valued using factors that were relevant at that point in time. If the value has subsequently decreased it does not alter the valuation at the point it was revalued.

What you're saying is akin to me going back to the person I sold my house to 10 years ago and saying that they now owe me more money because the value of the house has increased. 

You seem to believe that the valuation is a closed issue. That is where you are failing to understand how things work. The EFL have already revisited that decision once, they may do so again. 

As for the legal issue, it is not clear. Any EFL action would be certainly open to legal challenge, but their actions are given legitimacy by their rules, which allow them to revisit FFP decisions - and we signed up to those rules.

Your final point has no relevance. We are not talking about revisiting the terms of a sale.

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

You seem to believe that the valuation is a closed issue. That is where you are failing to understand how things work. The EFL have already revisited that decision once, they may do so again. 

As for the legal issue, it is not clear. Any EFL action would be certainly open to legal challenge, but their actions are given legitimacy by their rules, which allow them to revisit FFP decisions - and we signed up to those rules.

Your final point has no relevance. We are not talking about revisiting the terms of a sale.

You literally are saying that they will be revisiting the terms of the sale, despite the fact that they have not challenged the findings of the IDC, and there is no new information, as far as we are aware, relating to its valuation in 2018.

You are saying that the 2018 valuation could be incorrect based on 2020 factors, which is incorrect.

If a revaluation was carried out now do you think it would produce the same results as 2018?

[Maxwell Baxter]

1 hour ago, Boycie said:

I wonder if Dell are being asked to be stadium sponsors?

The Dell stadium.  Sounds familiar?

I'm sure it won't be long after fans are let back in, that it will be known as the theatre of screams  

[Ambitious]

11 hours ago, Nuwtfly said:

"Derby's takeover by Sheikh Khaled is still on course to go through, but has been delayed by negotiations involving American investors MSD Capital and the prospective new owners.

MSD Capital provided Derby with one substantial loan earlier this year and paperwork is still being exchanged between the two parties before the takeover can be concluded."

 

I do wonder what would've happened to the club had it not been for that loan? It certainly seems to have been taken out by necessity. 

[Spanish]

13 hours ago, CornwallRam said:

If the takeover goes through and the stadium is included, the EFL will take note of the valuation of the stadium in the transaction. If it is below the value that Mel used in his FFP wheeze, they may consider re-opening the case. The value of other assets and liabilities are irrelevant in this case. If the headline figure is £60m it will increase pressure (with insistence from Gibson) for them to act. That does not mean they will, or that such an action could not be successfully defended, but to claim that it is not possible is simply wrong.

CR hi

it is possible but an asset can only be sold for you can get for it.  A valuation does not carry a guarantee.  Pursuing this angle is only going to end up with the unblemished professional valuers suing the efl 

If he sold it to a connected party then that would get attention but to a totally unrelated entity no chance, imo

[Spanish]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

You literally are saying that they will be revisiting the terms of the sale, despite the fact that they have not challenged the findings of the IDC, and there is no new information, as far as we are aware, relating to its valuation in 2018.

You are saying that the 2018 valuation could be incorrect based on 2020 factors, which is incorrect.

If a revaluation was carried out now do you think it would produce the same results as 2018?

GSR

and at its core the valuation is provided by an independent professional expert not by the club. They were never going to be able to touch the club for that unless they could prove there was some connivance between Mel and the Valuer

[G STAR RAM]

7 minutes ago, Spanish said:

GSR

and at its core the valuation is provided by an independent professional expert not by the club. They were never going to be able to touch the club for that unless they could prove there was some connivance between Mel and the Valuer

Agreed.

They made themselves look silly by challenging it in the first place.

If they revisited a 2018 revaluation based on a 2020 sales price they would make themselves look ridiculous.

[Maxwell Baxter]

31 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

If they revisited a 2018 revaluation based on a 2020 sales price they would make themselves look ridiculous.

Wonder what response anyone who has brought a property and seen its value drop and maybe ended up in the horrible position of having negativity equality, would getting on going back to the estate agent and previous owners saying we now think this property should retrospectively be valued lower so give us back 25% of the money we paid.?

[Gaspode]

32 minutes ago, Maxwell Baxter said:

Wonder what response anyone who has brought a property and seen its value drop and maybe ended up in the horrible position of having negativity equality, would getting on going back to the estate agent and previous owners saying we now think this property should retrospectively be valued lower so give us back 25% of the money we paid.?

Can't see the value of a second-hand football stadium increasing much (if at all) in the current climate (and as more clubs go bust due to Covid, the value will shrink further) - PP probably only worth about £20M at present.....

[Maxwell Baxter]

14 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Can't see the value of a second-hand football stadium increasing much (if at all) in the current climate (and as more clubs go bust due to Covid, the value will shrink further) - PP probably only worth about £20M at present.....

The reason the EFL can not now revalue PP at 2020 prices to get Derby retrospectively on a breach of FFP, if they tried it they'd be on a loser.  

[24Charlie]

The stadium was valued using a set of parameters that the IDC agreed with not the Morecambe model forwarded by the EFL’s “expert”.

So from a valuation point of view the stadium price may vary according to the success of the team. Lower value in lower league. higher in higher league and so on. So the price it was valued at in 2018 was finite at that time. A different valuation doesn’t mean a a dodgy valuation just different circumstances applied to the 2018 model.

if Mel wants to sell the stadium for a bag of peanuts that’s up to him. It might be insane but not against any rules regarding ownership that I know of.

The EFL have no comeback whatsoever regarding the stadium.

 

 

 

[CBRammette]

Cant we just wait and see what happens. We will likely never see the detail of the deal. Cant believe we're now worrying about EFL again before anything has even happened.  I am sure the fancy lawyers, accountants snd bankers will have thought of all this as well as a zillion other things as they structure the consideration. Cant we just let them do their jobs snd chill a bit. Sorry to be grumpy but seriously!

[Gaspode]

9 minutes ago, 24Charlie said:

The stadium was valued using a set of parameters that the IDC agreed with not the Morecambe model forwarded by the EFL’s “expert”.

So from a valuation point of view the stadium price may vary according to the success of the team. Lower value in lower league. higher in higher league and so on. So the price it was valued at in 2018 was finite at that time. A different valuation doesn’t mean a a dodgy valuation just different circumstances applied to the 2018 model.

if Mel wants to sell the stadium for a bag of peanuts that’s up to him. It might be insane but not against any rules regarding ownership that I know of.

The EFL have no comeback whatsoever regarding the stadium.

 

 

 

You could legitimately argue that following the conclusion of the the original judgement, the stadium is legally no longer of interest to the authorities other than they record it as the place we play our fixtures. The valuation was only relevant at the point of sale and once the panel accepted that the sale was for a fair price, there's nowhere for the EFL (or thatt Bamford in Boro) to go with their arguments....

Now he owns it outright (subject to any 3rd party charge), Mel can stick a roof on it and convert it into a giant indooor soft play area if he wants to; he can sell it for £500M or he can sell it for £50 - its completely irrelevant as a football asset unless it comes back under ownership of the football club.....

[66DegreesNorth]

33 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Can't see the value of a second-hand football stadium increasing much (if at all) in the current climate (and as more clubs go bust due to Covid, the value will shrink further) - PP probably only worth about £20M at present.....

I think that is a little conservative, it would cost far more to build the same stadium with the same design and materials today. Waver in details like planning permission for capacity extention already agreed, the plaza designs and other modifactions taken over the last few years (no matter how small). In fact, I would be very surprised if the land alone doesn't cost 20 million plus.

[Gaspode]

1 minute ago, dlm77 said:

I think that is a little conservative, it would cost far more to build the same stadium with the same design and materials today. Waver in details like planning permission for capacity extention already agreed, the plaza designs and other modifactions taken over the last few years (no matter how small). In fact, I would be very surprised if the land alone doesn't cost 20 million plus.

It was a joke!!!!

[CornwallRam]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

You literally are saying that they will be revisiting the terms of the sale, despite the fact that they have not challenged the findings of the IDC, and there is no new information, as far as we are aware, relating to its valuation in 2018.

You are saying that the 2018 valuation could be incorrect based on 2020 factors, which is incorrect.

If a revaluation was carried out now do you think it would produce the same results as 2018?

I am saying that a sale now would be new information. It would provide a definite benchmark of the validity of the the 2018 valuation. To claim that the there is no connection between the value then and the value now is untenable.

Of course there are factors which will complicate it. Market conditions, depreciation, Covid, poor performance of the team etc will all have affected the valuation. It would not be simple for the EFL to make a case. IMO they were stupid for bringing the case in the first place as it was based on a ridiculous valuation method. Yet if the valuation now came in at £40m, the EFL would come under pressure to act - to think otherwise is naïve. That's not to say they should or will act. It's not to say that DCFC couldn't successfully defend any charges but there IS a connection between now and then and it WOULD be possible for the EFL to take action.

[Maxwell Baxter]

2 minutes ago, dlm77 said:

I think that is a little conservative, it would cost far more to build the same stadium with the same design and materials today. Waver in details like planning permission for capacity extention already agreed, the plaza designs and other modifactions taken over the last few years (no matter how small). In fact, I would be very surprised if the land alone doesn't cost 20 million plus.

It would cost possible more then 80 million to build but currently would anyone want to spend that money on a new build or even buy a used stadium for that price? 

[G STAR RAM]

17 minutes ago, CornwallRam said:

I am saying that a sale now would be new information. It would provide a definite benchmark of the validity of the the 2018 valuation. To claim that the there is no connection between the value then and the value now is untenable.

Of course there are factors which will complicate it. Market conditions, depreciation, Covid, poor performance of the team etc will all have affected the valuation. It would not be simple for the EFL to make a case. IMO they were stupid for bringing the case in the first place as it was based on a ridiculous valuation method. Yet if the valuation now came in at £40m, the EFL would come under pressure to act - to think otherwise is naïve. That's not to say they should or will act. It's not to say that DCFC couldn't successfully defend any charges but there IS a connection between now and then and it WOULD be possible for the EFL to take action.

The sale price in 2020 is not new information on the value in 2018.

 

[Archied]

2 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

You literally are saying that they will be revisiting the terms of the sale, despite the fact that they have not challenged the findings of the IDC, and there is no new information, as far as we are aware, relating to its valuation in 2018.

You are saying that the 2018 valuation could be incorrect based on 2020 factors, which is incorrect.

If a revaluation was carried out now do you think it would produce the same results as 2018?

Yep if mel sells the stadium for less than its 2018 valuation that cannot be used as evidence that the 2018 valuation was wrongfully inflated by the club and valuers, would the efl have charged us if mel had sold the stadium to himself at a price under the 2018 valuation,

I can see why the other poster debating this believes it’s perfectly likely the EFL may try this and feel they are right to do it but they wouldn’t have a case 

[Uptherams]

Are we rich yet?