TomG Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 11 minutes ago, Curtains said: Mindbogling https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiT0M_q1dzqAhW0p3EKHeowCuEQxfQBMAB6BAgKEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.derbytelegraph.co.uk%2Fsport%2Ffootball%2Ffootball-news%2Fderby-efl-charge-sheff-wed-4347538&usg=AOvVaw3m_maf_h-XoPqs5mds2azU Well that's clear.......as mud! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 20 minutes ago, europia said: I sense some skullduggery on the part of the EFL. They have hedged their bets, probably calculating that as things stand, a points deduction would hurt us more next season. Probably the only thing they (EFL) are right about, it would be disastrous for us. A season ruined before it kicks off..... The statement doesn't really say anything we didn't already know. To paraphrase, final league positions will be determined after the games on wednesday but still subject to resolution of any ongoing proceedings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 11 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said: You appear to be reasonably knowledgeable about this. In your opinion, if we were hit with a points deduction this season that didn't mean relegation, would we let it lie or would we appeal it on the basis a guilty verdict would impact us financially in seasons to come? It’s difficult for me to say without knowing everything the Club and the EFL know. Most importantly, it’s impossible to make a judgment without knowing what a guilty verdict actually means. I think a guilty verdict would free up more money for the next couple of seasons. Given our squad’s a bit light right now, it would tempt me to accept it. I think the penalty for failing the 2018 will be relatively small 6/7 points. Relatively small and it certainly won’t be enough to relegate us. Again, I’d be tempted to accept it. However, could accepting guilt result in being charged for failing the 2019 and 2020 periods, and give us a much bigger penalty? Could we get extra points taken off for deliberately breaching the rules? From what little we know, I would accept a guilty verdict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 8 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: The statement doesn't really say anything we didn't already know. To paraphrase, final league positions will be determined after the games on wednesday but still subject to resolution of any ongoing proceedings. That how I read it. Ie Still could be points deduction after Wednesday night this season for Wigan and Sheffield but not sure about Derby resulting in relegation places altering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 I may have mentioned this before but one of the things (amongst many!) that keeps bugging me about this whole thing is the bolded bit below from the EFL statement relating to the Birmingham outcome from 22nd March 2019. https://www.efl.com/news/2019/march/efl-statement-birmingham-city/ Quote An independent Disciplinary Commission, appointed under EFL Regulations, has today ruled that Birmingham City will be deducted nine points as a result of a breach of the League’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules (Rules). It follows a review of the financial submission from Birmingham City for the three-year period 2015/16 to 2017/18 where it was determined the Club had recorded losses in excess of the £39.0m upper loss threshold. On 14 August 2018 the Club was charged with a breach of those Rules. At a hearing on 18 March 2019, the Club pleaded guilty to the charge, and after hearing representations from both parties, the panel has fully considered the matter and ruled a nine-point deduction is appropriate, which will take effect in the current season. An EFL spokesman said: “The Profitability and Sustainability Rules, aligned with those in the Premier League, became effective in 2015/16. Season 2017/18 was the end of the first full reporting period with Birmingham City the only Club found to have breached those requirements, when it incurred adjusted losses of £48.787 million, £9.787 million in excess of the permitted losses. “The Disciplinary Commission had the opportunity to consider all relevant factors in reaching its determination, including the Club’s mitigation.” The parties have 14 days in which to appeal the decision, and in the circumstances no further comment will be made. The Championship league table will be amended with immediate effect but it must be recognised that this remains subject to the outcome of any appeal. A copy of the decision of the Disciplinary Commission can be read here. I still don't understand how they can say this and then subsequently charge both us and Sheffield Wednesday with failing for the exact same period? The EFL FFP/P&S rules state: https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/ Quote 2 Profitability and Sustainability 2.1 Rules 2.2 to 2.9 shall apply with effect from Season 2016/17. 2.2 Each Club shall by 1 March in each Season submit to the Executive: 2.2.1 copies of its Annual Accounts for T-1 (and T-2 if these have not previously been submitted to the Executive) together with copies of the directors’ report(s) and auditor’s report(s) on those accounts; 2.2.2 its estimated profit and loss account and balance sheet for T which shall: (a) be prepared in all material respects in a format similar to the Club’s Annual Accounts; and (b) be based on the latest information available to the Club and be, to the best of the Club’s knowledge and belief, an accurate estimate as at the time of preparation of future financial performance; and And the EFL's regulations for Clubs state: https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-4---clubs/ Quote 16 Clubs’ Financial Records 16.1 All Clubs shall keep their financial records in accordance with the provisions of The Football Association Rules and The League may arrange for an inspection of all such books. 16.2 Each Club shall submit a copy of its Annual Accounts (as defined in Regulation 16.3 below) to The League, but in any event: 16.2.1 by no later than 1 March following the end of the financial year to which those Annual Accounts relate (in the case of a Championship Club); or 16.2.2 by no later than the date on which the Club is required to file its accounts at Companies House (in case of League One and League Two Clubs). 16.3 For the purposes of this Regulation 16, Annual Accounts means the annual accounts in respect of the Club’s most recent financial year (such accounts to be prepared and audited in accordance with applicable legal and regulatory requirements) together with a copy of the directors’ report for that year and a copy of the auditor’s report (if any) on those accounts. So by 1st March 2019 (3 weeks before that statement above) the EFL should (otherwise it would be an outright breach of the rules) have had the accounts for every Championship club for the period relating to season 2017/18. So they must have checked them all and gave them the all clear to be able to say that Birmingham were the only club to have failed, right? Otherwise why say it? So what changed between March 2019 and January 2020, given that the charges relate to our amortisation method (that has been in place, and is written in black and white in the accounts, since 2015/16) and the stadium sale which happened in June 2018 and was fully documented in the accounts that they received by 1st March 2019? It just doesn't make sense, at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 10 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said: I may have mentioned this before but one of the things (amongst many!) that keeps bugging me about this whole thing is the bolded bit below from the EFL statement relating to the Birmingham outcome from 22nd March 2019. https://www.efl.com/news/2019/march/efl-statement-birmingham-city/ I still don't understand how they can say this and then subsequently charge both us and Sheffield Wednesday with failing for the exact same period? The EFL FFP/P&S rules state: https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/ And the EFL's regulations for Clubs state: https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/section-4---clubs/ So by 1st March 2019 (3 weeks before that statement above) the EFL should (otherwise it would be an outright breach of the rules) have had the accounts for every Championship club for the period relating to season 2017/18. So they must have checked them all and gave them the all clear to be able to say that Birmingham were the only club to have failed, right? Otherwise why say it? So what changed between March 2019 and January 2020, given that the charges relate to our amortisation method (that has been in place, and is written in black and white in the accounts, since 2015/16) and the stadium sale which happened in June 2018 and was fully documented in the accounts that they received by 1st March 2019? It just doesn't make sense, at all. A few clubs realised they were struggling and might get relegated so started to look for non footballing reasons to avoid it. Knowing how weak and pathetic they are, they then threatened the EFL with legal action, and that has led us to where we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EraniosSocks Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, sage said: Is it because you have a history of anxiety related issues related to an unhappy period of your life where you felt unloved and lacking a meaningful attachment to others? Though this was years ago, any situation with potential negative connotations leaves you with a deep sense of impending doom that you cannot see beyond. Or is it because it's Derby? Unloved mainly just Derby though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandomAccessMemory Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said: A few clubs realised they were struggling and might get relegated so started to look for non footballing reasons to avoid it. Knowing how weak and pathetic they are, they then threatened the EFL with legal action, and that has led us to where we are now. Exactly, but that doesn't change the facts of the matter that were obviously previously accepted as ok, so I really don't see what leg the EFL have to stand on with regards to these charges? The Club statement said that the EFL said they'd made a "mistake", what was the mistake they admitted, I wonder? I'd also quite like to know the rule that is alleged to have been breached in relation to the amortisation charge, as I can't see which one it would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 6 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said: Exactly, but that doesn't change the facts of the matter that were obviously previously accepted as ok, so I really don't see what leg the EFL have to stand on with regards to these charges? The Club statement said that the EFL said they'd made a "mistake", what was the mistake they admitted, I wonder? I'd also quite like to know the rule that is alleged to have been breached in relation to the amortisation charge, as I can't see which one it would be. From what I can see, literally no rules have been broken. About time the EFL carried out a fit and proper test on their own executives... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, RandomAccessMemory said: I'd also quite like to know the rule that is alleged to have been breached in relation to the amortisation charge, as I can't see which one it would be. The question mark hangs on whether our method is applicable to valuing players - I think it’s usually used for material items. It’s highly debatable whether it should be used (hence us asking the EFL in the first place), and I feel it will be determined that it is acceptable, but the EFL will be forced to specify which methods can be used in future. Derby to make adjustments, changing to a standard method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 An another note, the Independent Commission in the Birmingham case made reference to “gaining a competitive advantage” as a result of overspending. Could it not be argued that as other clubs can do exactly the same as us (sell their stadium and change amortisation method) whilst sticking to the rules at the time, we didn’t actually gain a wrongful competitive edge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 And one final point... The mystery club supposedly close to administration is apparently Charlton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramslad1992 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 46 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: From what I can see, literally no rules have been broken. About time the EFL carried out a fit and proper test on their own executives... They would only get an 'independent panel' to do it and appeal the judgement until it suited what they wanted in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MackworthRamIsGod Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Could the update regarding Wigan and Sheff Weds simply be because their hearings/deductions are in full swing and ours hasnt yet begun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Clough Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 16 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said: Could the update regarding Wigan and Sheff Weds simply be because their hearings/deductions are in full swing and ours hasnt yet begun? Nick De Marco hinted that our hearing started last Monday, which followed reports in the media a few days prior that ours was due to start on the 13th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gfs1ram Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Just announced that Coventry City's new 20000 Stadium will cost nearly £100 million to build. How much now a days to build Pride Park ?? Makes the valuation of £80 million look more reasonable !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 46 minutes ago, gfs1ram said: Just announced that Coventry City's new 20000 Stadium will cost nearly £100 million to build. How much now a days to build Pride Park ?? Makes the valuation of £80 million look more reasonable !! Isn't there a nice modern stadium in Coventry? Surely they could strike a deal to use that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scarlet Pimpernel Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 56 minutes ago, gfs1ram said: Just announced that Coventry City's new 20000 Stadium will cost nearly £100 million to build. How much now a days to build Pride Park ?? Makes the valuation of £80 million look more reasonable !! That makes £80m an absolute bargain. Mel should have paid more, how stingy can you get! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, The Orange Pimpernel said: That makes £80m an absolute bargain. Mel should have paid more, how stingy can you get! Time for Mel to sell it on to another of Mel's companies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRammette Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 6 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said: Nick De Marco hinted that our hearing started last Monday, which followed reports in the media a few days prior that ours was due to start on the 13th. Should we be worried that the EFL tied him up rather than letting him defend us? Even more skulduggery. Did he escape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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