Albert Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: You're assuming that the Covid pandemic is not leading to deaths from other causes. I'm not actually. What I'm doing is showing that the claim that the dying within 28 days of a positive test figure could contain a sizeable fraction of 'dying with Covid, not of Covid' deaths is just not plausible. The pandemic may well be leading to other deaths, but given the fraction we're talking about here, if the pandemic is leading to deaths not related to Covid, and that's pushing up these figures, then the excess death figures across the country would have to be absolutely mindblowing. Going back to the same point as before, ie 74,570 deaths from 2,599,789 confirmed cases, then we could actually figure out how many people would have to be dying of these other causes. For example, if you were to claim that 24,570 of those deaths were due to other impacts of the pandemic, the response, etc, but not the virus, then this would be expected to be a generic effect across the population, not just limited to those 2,599,789 confirmed cases. We can hence do what was done before in reverse, and see that for this to be true, ~0.95% of people in the UK would have to die every 28 days, or about 12% of the UK's population a year, ie 8.2 million people. Got to be honest, people would probably have noticed that many deaths. 7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: You might be right, you might be wrong. It's not a 'might be right, might be wrong', kind of thing to argue. If you think there's an error, show it. Otherwise, you're literally just denying evidence in front of you because you dislike it. 7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Putting 'we know' and 'I've already proven' into your posts when both statements are false doesnt change anything. It doesn't, no, but the arguments as raised do. This 'dying with Covid' silliness has been answered in numerous ways over the year, it's pants on head conspiracy nonsense, and my argument, as presented above, is just one way of seeing why it's so silly. Yet, it's just such a fun line to some, it seems, so they return to it. To be blunt, the 'dying with Covid' line really is just a marker of far right wing conspiracy garbage at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIllyD Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Have another go at reading the post. I said I have heard anecdotal evidence but don't rely heavily upon it. You're clever enough to know the difference between me forming an opinion based upon anecdotal evidence and a medical professional going on the BBC and saying things that she knows not to be true. Good attempt at trying to deflect away from the issue but didn't work on this occasion unfortunately. Whilst Im far from clever, we both know you added the anecdotal evidence to back up your opinion despite the caveat, why else put it ? As for the medical professional, to be honest I'm not which bit I was trying to attempt to deflect from ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, BIllyD said: Whilst Im far from clever, we both know you added the anecdotal evidence to back up your opinion despite the caveat, why else put it ? As for the medical professional, to be honest I'm not which bit I was trying to attempt to deflect from ? Of course I added it to evidence that I believe it is happening, not sure how else I would have arrived at my opinion. Do I think people are having Covid put on their death certificate when it is not the cause of death? Yes. Do I have any idea of the scale of this? No. I don't think that is any more ridiculous than saying that there should have been 8.2m deaths of other causes for my opinion to be correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 3 hours ago, Sinistra ram rousse said: Why does the government persist with the line that schools are safe. No they are not. This new variant is spreading more effectively amongst younger people who then take it home and spread it to their families. Teachers are in the firing line and are expected to do their job with little or no protection. If teachers are expected to work in schools they should be amongst the first to be protected. I am a retired teacher and have 3 sons in teaching. We need to close schools now to prevent this new variant swamping the NHS enen more. But as usual the government will react too late. Ask yourself this question,would you be happy with kids coughing in your face nearly everday because that's what my son is experiencing. I'm very worried and very angry! My daughter is a teacher too and I’m sorry but I do not believe for one minute the line that children were not spreading it to any serious degree before these new strains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 Wow how bizarre is this thread becoming ,,, far right , yes far right if you question anything ,,wow just wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 11 minutes ago, Archied said: Wow how bizarre is this thread becoming ,,, far right , yes far right if you question anything ,,wow just wow You forgot conspiracy theorist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 4 hours ago, Sinistra ram rousse said: Why does the government persist with the line that schools are safe. No they are not. This new variant is spreading more effectively amongst younger people who then take it home and spread it to their families. Teachers are in the firing line and are expected to do their job with little or no protection. If teachers are expected to work in schools they should be amongst the first to be protected. I am a retired teacher and have 3 sons in teaching. We need to close schools now to prevent this new variant swamping the NHS enen more. But as usual the government will react too late. Ask yourself this question,would you be happy with kids coughing in your face nearly everday because that's what my son is experiencing. I'm very worried and very angry! Schools closed equals no childcare. Which means more people off work, which means the economy suffers a great deal more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: You forgot conspiracy theorist Tbh I believe those on the far-left go with the conspiracy theories. Piers Corbyn for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 37 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: You forgot conspiracy theorist Left that bit out as it’s a well worn tactic but to find the accusation of far right now being thrown on this subject matter ( well worn tactic in other subjects )is just astounding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 28 minutes ago, Norman said: Tbh I believe those on the far-left go with the conspiracy theories. Piers Corbyn for example. I know , far right far left has no real bearing on this issue , think it says more about where the accuser s head is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 If the government are telling us the truth on how bad the virus is then they are knowingly going to kill people by opening up the schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 2 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: If the government are telling us the truth on how bad the virus is then they are knowingly going to kill people by opening up the schools. No more than they knowingly killing people by letting us drive, or eat unhealthy things, or drink, or smoke. As with everything, it's a massive grey area with balances for risks, benefits and costs of keeping the kids at school. Freedoms & personal responsibility vs restrictions to save lives. We might all like it to be black & white (good & bad choices) but it just isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyp Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-national-lockdown-must-be-imposed-within-24-hours-says-labour-leader-12178438 The government must impose a national lockdown within 24 hours, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 21 minutes ago, jimmyp said: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-national-lockdown-must-be-imposed-within-24-hours-says-labour-leader-12178438 The government must impose a national lockdown within 24 hours, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has said. I'm not in disagreement but seems to be calling for a lockdown November style rather than March. Not sure how different that is to tier 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 55 minutes ago, jimmyp said: https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-national-lockdown-must-be-imposed-within-24-hours-says-labour-leader-12178438 The government must impose a national lockdown within 24 hours, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer has said. It really isn't hard to predict what wil happen next. Boris hints at tighter restrictions this morning, Starmer demands tighter restrictions. Only thing left is for the government to agree it, book a press conference in at 3pm and Sturgeon will announce it at 1pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 13 minutes ago, Norman said: It really isn't hard to predict what wil happen next. Boris hints at tighter restrictions this morning, Starmer demands tighter restrictions. Only thing left is for the government to agree it, book a press conference in at 3pm and Sturgeon will announce it at 1pm. I was fully expecting Sturgeon to announce the vaccine in Scotland will be 11 weeks and 6 days between shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 47 minutes ago, Norman said: It really isn't hard to predict what wil happen next. Boris hints at tighter restrictions this morning, Starmer demands tighter restrictions. Only thing left is for the government to agree it, book a press conference in at 3pm and Sturgeon will announce it at 1pm. You forgot the part when Johnson ridicules Starmer for wanting more restrictions, the Tory send out tweets about how Starmer wants to ruin the economy, then Johnson does what Starmer was suggesting, but a bit later just to push cases up a further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 17 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: You forgot the part when Johnson ridicules Starmer for wanting more restrictions, the Tory send out tweets about how Starmer wants to ruin the economy, then Johnson does what Starmer was suggesting, but a bit later just to push cases up a further. Politics is all a game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 2 hours ago, Wolfie said: No more than they knowingly killing people by letting us drive, or eat unhealthy things, or drink, or smoke. As with everything, it's a massive grey area with balances for risks, benefits and costs of keeping the kids at school. Freedoms & personal responsibility vs restrictions to save lives. We might all like it to be black & white (good & bad choices) but it just isn't. People can’t visit the grandkids but can go to work in a school with 30+ kids of similar age in one class. Someone is having a laugh. There is no sense whatsoever to Tier 4 rules while schools are open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Sith Happens said: I was fully expecting Sturgeon to announce the vaccine in Scotland will be 11 weeks and 6 days between shots. If we announced an immediate lockdown she would she had already done it yesterday and forgot to announce it. Although I am assuming she will be resigning tomorrow having broken Covid rules, having previously calling for others to resign for the same offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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