Tamworthram Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Chester40 said: You hope.... I'm not sure that's always true. The example of going out of your way and buying garden equipment is an interesting example, that I think is totally unnecessary really.. ? I am generally no 'Swampy' hugging trees and moaning about free will. I would also add I don't really care about being exposed to risk as part of my job. But I have colleagues with underlying health issues that aren't deemed 'severe' that are very worried about the plan to redeploy them to support the Council and being made to accept risk, or look very bad..and potentially lose their job in the future. I find myself in the weird position where I am kinda mostly unaffected but am becoming increasingly angered by huge hypocrisy, massive power in the hands of those incapable of wielding it and worrying decisions being forced upon society which are roundly applauded by and large without question. What would you say are the worrying decisions being forced upon society? Genuine question. Yes, our liberty is restricted at the moment (perhaps a little over zealously on rare occasions) but, assuming they’re not permanent (why would they be?) what worries you about them? It’s tough, especially for anyone living alone/the elderly/those self isolating but the rationale seems sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 hours ago, maxjam said: Kinda agree tbh. I think whilst were in the midst of the pandemic the majority of people will happily go along with the guidelines. The test will come when life slowly starts to return to normal - will governments relinquish all of their power and control and not use certain benefits of the lockdown to keep some restrictions in place? Why on earth would the government want to keep the controls and restrictions in place for anything other than a reasonable period of time? What would they gain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: What would you say are the worrying decisions being forced upon society? Genuine question. Yes, our liberty is restricted at the moment (perhaps a little over zealously on rare occasions) but, assuming they’re not permanent (why would they be?) what worries you about them? It’s tough, especially for anyone living alone/the elderly/those self isolating but the rationale seems sound. 'Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely' watch from 55s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, maxjam said: watch from 55s I wonder what objectionable powers he is referring to. I don’t think I’ve seen anything published or any objections raised (maybe I don’t read enough political media). The retention of DNA is a new one on me but, I’m not sure I have a problem with that anyway. Without seeing the full details then there is nothing I know of that concerns me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Just now, Tamworthram said: I wonder what objectionable powers he is referring to. I don’t think I’ve seen anything published or any objections raised (maybe I don’t read enough political media). The retention of DNA is a new one on me but, I’m not sure I have a problem with that anyway. Without seeing the full details then there is nothing I know of that concerns me. I've not seen the details myself and trust that life will return to normal when the current situation passes. I don't want to dwell to much on what might happen as you start bordering on conspiracy theories but at the same time its only wise to remain vigilent and kick up a fuss if there is a power grab, stealth or otherwise at the end of all this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chester40 Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 13 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: What would you say are the worrying decisions being forced upon society? Genuine question. Yes, our liberty is restricted at the moment (perhaps a little over zealously on rare occasions) but, assuming they’re not permanent (why would they be?) what worries you about them? It’s tough, especially for anyone living alone/the elderly/those self isolating but the rationale seems sound. Police have basically been given 'stop, question, fine and prosecute' powers for basically ANY reason at all..inc walking and driving, and everyone thinks its ok. I think that's worrying. I saw an old lady on my daily walk being stopped by a policewoman and asked where she was going (her house up the road). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Chester40 said: Police have basically been given 'stop, question, fine and prosecute' powers for basically ANY reason at all..inc walking and driving, and everyone thinks its ok. I think that's worrying. I saw an old lady on my daily walk being stopped by a policewoman and asked where she was going (her house up the road). What’s wrong with stopping and asking her under these extreme circumstances? It might well have been quite a friendly conversation to “advice” the lady in case she wasn’t aware of current laws. It might have been “I’m going to the corner shop to get my essentials” and the answer might have been “OK. Have a nice day and stay safe”. What’s wrong with the police having the power to stop and question under these circumstances? It’s obvious that some are still not heeding the advice. You’re not going to get prosecuted or fined for ANY reason. If you’re abiding by the rules in terms of why you’re out and where you are in relation to where you live, then I can’t see there is any chance you will face sanctions. So, yes, I’m OK with that. The only element of the current emergency bill that probably needs watching that it doesn’t become long term is the ability to prevent large gatherings but, I’m confident this won’t happen. I guess we’re all somewhere on the spectrum between naivety and paranoia and I’m perhaps somewhere towards the naivety end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Tamworthram said: What’s wrong with stopping and asking her under these extreme circumstances? It might well have been quite a friendly conversation to “advice” the lady in case she wasn’t aware of current laws. It might have been “I’m going to the corner shop to get my essentials” and the answer might have been “OK. Have a nice day and stay safe”. What’s wrong with the police having the power to stop and question under these circumstances? It’s obvious that some are still not heeding the advice. You’re not going to get prosecuted or fined for ANY reason. If you’re abiding by the rules in terms of why you’re out and where you are in relation to where you live, then I can’t see there is any chance you will face sanctions. So, yes, I’m OK with that. The only element of the current emergency bill that probably needs watching that it doesn’t become long term is the ability to prevent large gatherings but, I’m confident this won’t happen. I guess we’re all somewhere on the spectrum between naivety and paranoia and I’m perhaps somewhere towards the naivety end. I'd normally bend more towards the paranoia end. But these aren't normal times, and we need some unusual solutions to today's issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 2 hours ago, GboroRam said: Police do sometimes get overly aggressive. It's a career that will attract people who enjoy the power trip and want to be Bamfords themselves. It also will be hard, as it's a career that will isolate from the general public (they end up socialising together, and working in an environment surrounded by Bamfords I guess you start to think everyone is the same). I fully agree with your comment about buying gardening equipment, it is uncalled for. But I'm in a permitted place, doing permitted things. At the same time I'll pick up two boxes. By the letter of the law maybe I'm breaking the law. But I'm not being a Bamford. People going for a drive to pick up non-essentials is the next level up, causing more problems. a very good friend of mine grew up in Epsom, which has a somewhat iffy overspill estate. He went back several years later to catch up and see how "all the 'erberts 'ad bin gettin' on". his report were that half of them hadn't showed up because they were inside. The worst elements were all in the Met......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 37 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: I wonder what objectionable powers he is referring to. I don’t think I’ve seen anything published or any objections raised (maybe I don’t read enough political media). The retention of DNA is a new one on me but, I’m not sure I have a problem with that anyway. Without seeing the full details then there is nothing I know of that concerns me. Quote New powers given to police in England mean no-one will be allowed to leave their home "without reasonable excuse". The measures come into force on Thursday and will last six months, with a review every three weeks. The problem is the interpretation of "without reasonable excuse". I suspect that individuals could be arrested for all sorts of spurious and ridiculous reasons now. Travelling too far to walk the dog? Passing too close to someone on a pavement? Derbyshire Police have already been criticised for their lack of common sense in interpreting the new rules. Quote A former Justice of the Supreme Court told the BBC one force's use of drones to film walkers in the Peak District had been "disgraceful". Once you are arrested and fined for some trivial and debatable bit of nonsense, presumably this is now a criminal offence, and therefore the Police can take your Dna and retain it indefinitely. The uk was absolutely pounded in the European Court of Human rights over Police powers to take dna for trivial offences, and for there being no right of appeal. We don't have a national dna database of all citizens. We just have a dna database of 'criminals'. So if the local plod accuses you of walking too close to someone, or non-essential travel to the local shop to buy a bar of chocolate, presumably you can be fined; deemed to have committed a criminal offence; have your dna taken, and entered onto the criminal database. Perhaps the MP is arguing that these new offences do not justify criminalising people for life. If so he is probably right. Laws exist to protect people's privacy and personal information. Use of personal information has to appropriate and justifiable. There is nothing more personal than Dna, and these laws are starting to breach the boundaries of what is appropriate and justifiable. most law abiding folk might think it doesn't matter, but it gives Police the opportunity to trawl for dna under the guise of enforcing social distancing legislation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 14 minutes ago, RamNut said: The problem is the interpretation of "without reasonable excuse". I suspect that individuals could be arrested for all sorts of spurious and ridiculous reasons now. Travelling too far to walk the dog? Passing too close to someone on a pavement? Derbyshire Police have already been criticised for their lack of common sense in interpreting the new rules. Once you are arrested and fined for some trivial and debatable bit of nonsense, presumably this is now a criminal offence, and therefore the Police can take your Dna and retain it indefinitely. The uk was absolutely pounded in the European Court of Human rights over Police powers to take dna for trivial offences, and for there being no right of appeal. We don't have a national dna database of all citizens. We just have a dna database of 'criminals'. So if the local plod accuses you of walking too close to someone, or non-essential travel to the local shop to buy a bar of chocolate, presumably you can be fined; deemed to have committed a criminal offence; have your dna taken, and entered onto the criminal database. Perhaps the MP is arguing that these new offences do not justify criminalising people for life. If so he is probably right. Laws exist to protect people's privacy and personal information. Use of personal information has to appropriate and justifiable. There is nothing more personal than Dna, and these laws are starting to breach the boundaries of what is appropriate and justifiable. most law abiding folk might think it doesn't matter, but it gives Police the opportunity to trawl for dna under the guise of enforcing social distancing legislation. I don’t think people will be arrested for trivial, spurious or ridiculous reasons. By and large, the police and courts are far too busy. I know it’s a controversial subject but what is wrong with the police trawling DNA records to find a match at a crime scene? It may help speed up cases and find the perpetrators. As the saying goes, if you’ve nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide. You’re not going to get charged if your DNA is found at a property that’s been burgled if there is a good reason for it being there but, if your DNA is found on a weapon used then you might have some explaining to do. Also, I believe a correction to your final sentence, social distancing won’t give the police an opportunity to trawl DNA (why would they need to? Surely you’re there when they stop you) but it would give them the opportunity to obtain and store it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 18 minutes ago, Tamworthram said: I don’t think people will be arrested for trivial, spurious or ridiculous reasons. By and large, the police and courts are far too busy. I know it’s a controversial subject but what is wrong with the police trawling DNA records to find a match at a crime scene? It may help speed up cases and find the perpetrators. As the saying goes, if you’ve nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide. You’re not going to get charged if your DNA is found at a property that’s been burgled if there is a good reason for it being there but, if your DNA is found on a weapon used then you might have some explaining to do. Also, I believe a correction to your final sentence, social distancing won’t give the police an opportunity to trawl DNA (why would they need to? Surely you’re there when they stop you) but it would give them the opportunity to obtain and store it. We should have a national dna database Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamworthram Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Archied said: We should have a national dna database Yes please. Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 Has this beaten the George Thorne thread yet?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 5 hours ago, maxjam said: Kinda agree tbh. I think whilst were in the midst of the pandemic the majority of people will happily go along with the guidelines. The test will come when life slowly starts to return to normal - will governments relinquish all of their power and control and not use certain benefits of the lockdown to keep some restrictions in place? No doubt certain Governments will, As for ours it would be a mistake of Biblical proportions, The British people are pretty tolerant when asked to do something that is alien to us, But to keep hold of these laws would release an anger that toples Governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TramRam Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Tamworthram said: What would you say are the worrying decisions being forced upon society? Genuine question. Yes, our liberty is restricted at the moment (perhaps a little over zealously on rare occasions) but, assuming they’re not permanent (why would they be?) what worries you about them? It’s tough, especially for anyone living alone/the elderly/those self isolating but the rationale seems sound. Have done for years now, Life is good, I can go shopping, I can take a walk, I tend my garden, Things I did but cant, Go out for a few beers, I've not missed this to be honest, Watching DCFC same as beer, My social life is linked to beer and football, I'm a charactor that's sees life and enjoys what ever it brings. For some it must have turned their lifestyle upside down and inside out...for those I feel sorry for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Tamworthram said: I don’t think people will be arrested for trivial, spurious or ridiculous reasons. By and large, the police and courts are far too busy. I know it’s a controversial subject but what is wrong with the police trawling DNA records to find a match at a crime scene? It may help speed up cases and find the perpetrators. As the saying goes, if you’ve nothing wrong then you have nothing to hide. You’re not going to get charged if your DNA is found at a property that’s been burgled if there is a good reason for it being there but, if your DNA is found on a weapon used then you might have some explaining to do. Also, I believe a correction to your final sentence, social distancing won’t give the police an opportunity to trawl DNA (why would they need to? Surely you’re there when they stop you) but it would give them the opportunity to obtain and store it. From reports, it seems that they already have been. Apparently one fine dished out was for “non-essential shopping”. It’s like something off Not the Nine o’clock news. Anyway.....I assume that’s what the issue is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anag Ram Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 I actually fear the first stages of freedom. There is a minority of people who resent the idea of having their liberty taken away for the health of the minority. They want a good time no matter what. We saw so many acts of stupidity during lockdown. When this is relaxed I fear people will go nuts and the Saturday night casualty figures will put pressure back onto the NHS. Sure, it's tough, unbelievably so for those who are or are close to sick people. We are in the midst of something truly historic and we all have our parts to play but we must not spoil all our hard work in self-destructive behaviour which puts us back. I hope second time around the public will show greater responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 99% of the public seem to be exercising common sense. Trouble is where do you draw the line? At some point I’d quite like to drive 40 miles to visit my 93 year old mum to check she’s ok. Is that essential? She has family near by so she is looked after but she is still lonely. Will some PC be able to decide that it isn’t essential and dish out a fine? Probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted March 31, 2020 Share Posted March 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, RamNut said: 99% of the public seem to be exercising common sense. Trouble is where do you draw the line? At some point I’d quite like to drive 40 miles to visit my 93 year old mum to check she’s ok. Is that essential? She has family near by so she is looked after but she is still lonely. Will some PC be able to decide that it isn’t essential and dish out a fine? Probably. Certainly doesn't sound essential to me. My parents live 4 miles away but I'm not going to put them at risk by turning up there. Not while we can speak on the phone, send texts/emails daily and video-call once a week. I get that it's hard, but we're all in the same boat and have to do whatever it takes to make this end Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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