The Politics Thread 2020

[Stive Pesley]

Cummings is nothing if not interesting. Here's an article from 2012 when he was advising Gove on education

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/12/michael-gove-special-adviser

 

[maxjam]

44 minutes ago, RamNut said:

@maxjam that is an interesting video.

he comes across as brutally honest and rational. His withering opinion of MPs - particularly Tory MPs - is an eye opener.

 

 

32 minutes ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Thanks for posting that.

The main thing I took from it was he's smart enough to see the majority of the electorate as neither left or right wing, but as individuals who will pick and choose which policies apply to them, in contrast to the elected MPs who believe we sit at one end or the other of the scale.

I didn't however find him particularly principled one way or the other, I got the impression he'd have quite happily worked for remain if they'd have got to him first, or paid him more.

In fact, I'd say he comes across as a smug twit, for whom being on the winning side of an argument is more important to him personally than whether he believes in a cause or not.

That's not even a criticism, more an observation.

 

Yeah I was expecting to skip through it myself but it quickly became compelling viewing, a real eye opener in places.

I can see why you thought he was an smug twit and he does appear to revel in being on the winning side but it was also nice to hear that both he and Boris Johnson fully intended to fully through on campaign promises if, as they both assumed, he had ascended to leader after Cameron stood down.  It was also nice to hear that they are both aware that the Tories are viewed as unlikeable/uncaring by many - it will be interesting to see if they can address that over the coming years...

[alexxxxx]

6 hours ago, maxjam said:

 

Interesting article (and hour long podcast that I'll listen to at a later date) about Michael Lind’s The New Class War: Saving Democracy from the Managerial Elite.

I know some of you will shudder at the thought of Brendon O'Neill and Spiked so here is a Guardian article as well;

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/feb/02/the-new-class-war-michael-lind-democrats-trump

I'll try and give the podcast a listen later and maybe add the book to my reading list, some interesting ideas imo.

 

I've not read the book but I'm not sure i agree with the ending of the analysis in that article. It seems to me that the populist right are well in the driving seat and by and large the electorate (or more accurately, the people they need to get to vote for them for them to win the election) are happy with their choice. 

The populist right have succeeded in changing democracy forever. Its all a game, picking enemies, target the public through social media and participate in culture wars.

I don't think this will be reversed by the not-even-really-that-left-wing 'managerial elite' giving an olive branch (through what exactly?) to traditional, now-marginalised groups. 

Id say its more likely that the populists begin to lose popularity due to poor policy performance and they'll have to evolve to garner wider support. 

[maxjam]

20 minutes ago, alexxxxx said:

I've not read the book but I'm not sure i agree with the ending of the analysis in that article. It seems to me that the populist right are well in the driving seat and by and large the electorate (or more accurately, the people they need to get to vote for them for them to win the election) are happy with their choice. 

The populist right have succeeded in changing democracy forever. Its all a game, picking enemies, target the public through social media and participate in culture wars.

I don't think this will be reversed by the not-even-really-that-left-wing 'managerial elite' giving an olive branch (through what exactly?) to traditional, now-marginalised groups. 

Id say its more likely that the populists begin to lose popularity due to poor policy performance and they'll have to evolve to garner wider support. 

Got no comment sorry, just offered it up as a thought provoking read. 

The article did raise a few interesting concepts though that I'd like to hear his thinking behind.  Gonna listen to the podcast myself when I've got time and maybe get the book of the back of it if its any good. 

[Boycie]

Piers Morgan has stoked the Cummings fire this morning, he’s been off all last week and hasn’t had chance to air his views on live tv.

Blaming all the massed beaches and parks etc on him basically.

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, Boycie said:

Piers Morgan has stoked the Cummings fire this morning, he’s been off all last week and hasn’t had chance to air his views on live tv.

Blaming all the massed beaches and parks etc on him basically.

Yup, cos no one was doing any of that before last week ?

IMO sometimes Piers Morgan gets things spot on, other times he misses the mark badly.  Its usually all about him though whatever he says.

[TuffLuff]

[TuffLuff]

4 hours ago, maxjam said:

Yup, cos no one was doing any of that before last week ?

IMO sometimes Piers Morgan gets things spot on, other times he misses the mark badly.  Its usually all about him though whatever he says.

Problem is though it’s impossible to discount because it’s impossible to measure. Therefore its justifiable to be considered a factor. If you went walking around hotspots in Derbyshire this weekend it was easy to see the evidence of the public’s increasingly laissez faire approach to public life. That’s why this is going to continue to be a major own goal for the government. The only thing that will ease it is if infections and death rates continue to lower which is going to be a slow process whilst this has all the potential to get worse for them.

[Gritstone Ram]

5 hours ago, Boycie said:

Piers Morgan has stoked the Cummings fire this morning, he’s been off all last week and hasn’t had chance to air his views on live tv.

Blaming all the massed beaches and parks etc on him basically.

It’s a bit sad when people have to blame someone for their actions or look for someone or something to blame. If people actually took responsibility for their own actions things would be a lot better.

[i-Ram]

3 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

It’s a bit sad when people have to blame someone for their actions or look for someone or something to blame. If people actually took responsibility for their own actions things would be a lot better.

I agree but nonetheless I blame all the phone tapping scandal on Piers Morgan. 

[Stive Pesley]

12 minutes ago, TuffLuff said:

If you went walking around hotspots in Derbyshire this weekend it was easy to see the evidence of the public’s increasingly laissez faire approach to public life.

This weekend was ridiculous.

It seemed utterly idiotic to make the announcement on a Friday that there would be new relaxed lockdown rules from Monday. It would appear that most people just heard that as "immediately"

Is this just incompetence or carefully calculated (so that when the R numer goes back up they blame the great unwashed for not adhering to the rules)?

 

 

[Comrade 86]

23 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

It’s a bit sad when people have to blame someone for their actions or look for someone or something to blame. If people actually took responsibility for their own actions things would be a lot better.

Let's do away with the rule of law completely then and see how that works. I'm a libertarian but even I conceded that leadership is required at the best of times and we're a long walk away form that right now. Perhaps also, you feel that the government should not be held to account, but I think your posting record indicates you are rather less 'charitable' where the left is concerned, so forgive me if the more you say that nothing is their fault, the more I question the government's performance. Doubtless you'd be the same.

Whilst it's clear that many members of the public have been hugely irresponsible, not just this weekend past, but in some cases, throughout the pandemic, surely that should set a precedent for more stringent controls and clearer guidance than the opposite. In fact, I'd say that is proven given the pictures we've seen from the weekend just past, though again, I feel certain you won't agree with that either. 

[Gritstone Ram]

18 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Let's do away with the rule of law completely then and see how that works. I'm a libertarian but even I conceded that leadership is required at the best of times and we're a long walk away form that right now. Perhaps also, you feel that the government should not be held to account, but I think your posting record indicates you are rather less 'charitable' where the left is concerned, so forgive me if the more you say that nothing is their fault, the more I question the government's performance. Doubtless you'd be the same.

Whilst it's clear that many members of the public have been hugely irresponsible, not just this weekend past, but in some cases, throughout the pandemic, surely that should set a precedent for more stringent controls and clearer guidance than the opposite. In fact, I'd say that is proven given the pictures we've seen from the weekend just past, though again, I feel certain you won't agree with that either. 

I don’t know whether it is just me but this social distancing is right up my street. I’m not a touchy-feely person I feel uncomfortable when people touch me. I would rather sit on a beach on my own or with a small number of people rather than 100’s of people I don’t know.

I find it hard to understand why people want to congregate in mass numbers. I don’t get it.

So as far as I’m concerned I don’t need any rules. As for what I saw at the weekend why should they spoil it for the rest of us?

[AndyinLiverpool]

52 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

This weekend was ridiculous.

It seemed utterly idiotic to make the announcement on a Friday that there would be new relaxed lockdown rules from Monday. It would appear that most people just heard that as "immediately"

Is this just incompetence or carefully calculated (so that when the R numer goes back up they blame the great unwashed for not adhering to the rules)?

 

 

dear, dear. How could you be so cynical? ?

[Stive Pesley]

Meanwhile over in the US...

"While no one condones looting, on the other hand one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression and people who've had members of their family killed by that regime, for them to be taking their feelings out on that regime."

[FindernRam]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

It seemed utterly idiotic to make the announcement on a Friday that there would be new relaxed lockdown rules from Monday. It would appear that most people just heard that as "immediately"

Agreed. Particularly when the other nations not only were slightly more relaxed in numbers but also said straight away. SAGE has behavioural scientists on its team so unless the Gov didn't listen to them this was deliberate in as much as it possibly limited the numbers out this weekend due to some people following the rules even if most didn't.

[i-Ram]

35 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

I don’t know whether it is just me but this social distancing is right up my street. I’m not a touchy-feely person I feel uncomfortable when people touch me. I would rather sit on a beach on my own or with a small number of people rather than 100’s of people I don’t know.

I find it hard to understand why people want to congregate in mass numbers. I don’t get it.

You should get a Florist season ticket.

[AndyinLiverpool]

39 minutes ago, Van Gritters said:

I don’t know whether it is just me but this social distancing is right up my street. I’m not a touchy-feely person I feel uncomfortable when people touch me. I would rather sit on a beach on my own or with a small number of people rather than 100’s of people I don’t know.

I find it hard to understand why people want to congregate in mass numbers. I don’t get it.

So as far as I’m concerned I don’t need any rules. As for what I saw at the weekend why should they spoil it for the rest of us?

It's not just you. It's been great for me. Nobody coming into contact with me and definitely no hugging beyond her indoors and the kids.

People talk about a low contact world. My world has always been like that. I'm a 53-year-old English bloke. Continuing on that theme, I spent an hour on the phone with my father yesterday talking about 1950s westerns because we can't talk about anything important. It is the longest conversation I have had with my father for about 30 years.

Lockdown is great.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

24 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Meanwhile over in the US...

"While no one condones looting, on the other hand one can understand the pent-up feelings that may result from decades of repression and people who've had members of their family killed by that regime, for them to be taking their feelings out on that regime."

It's a difficult situation. I think it's a mixture with the looters. Some are genuinely doing it as a form of protest against institutional racism in the belief that peaceful protests don't work; and others are doing it because they fancy a fight and want to nick stuff. I think both are wrong, though I obviously have more distaste for the latter than the former.

I've never seen social media in such a crazy state as it has been recently though. You'd hope that it might finally signal a change, but somehow I doubt it.

I saw about 2 seconds of the George Floyd video and I stopped it instantly. I usually have a strong stomach for stuff like that but it was just horrible. Absolutely horrible,

[maxjam]

1 hour ago, Van Gritters said:

It’s a bit sad when people have to blame someone for their actions or look for someone or something to blame. If people actually took responsibility for their own actions things would be a lot better.

 

It seems to me that nobody knew what was expected off them when we were told to 'stay alert', then all of a sudden everyone knew exactly what the rules were when the Dominic Cummings thing kicked off and now we've moved onto 'well he did it...'

When I was a lad my mum always used to ask me whether 'I'd jump off a cliff if all my friends did' turns out that was good advice, whilst everyone else goes to the beach and potentially gets sick the rest of us with a modicum of common sense will carry on social distancing.

The government has never had us in total lockdown like some other places, rightly or wrongly they have always relied on people to do the right thing.