The Politics Thread 2020

[cstand]

18 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

Can't believe Trump, he stands in front of a church as a photo opportunity. Then makes a speech saying he will use the full force the military to stop the protests. He says he his doing this to protect the nation. Why did he also say it would preserve the second amendment, which is the right to bare arms. This is an open invitation for all the white supremacist to come out on to the streets with their automatic rifles.

Is this moron trying to incite even more violence on the streets of America than there already 

Well done Trump take back control of the streets before property owners take up arms against the rioters, but please don’t talk about it get your finger out and get the job done.

[Archied]

20 hours ago, Van Gritters said:

It’s a bit sad when people have to blame someone for their actions or look for someone or something to blame. If people actually took responsibility for their own actions things would be a lot better.

Like Dom ?

[maxjam]

9 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Context? OK. The US is far from oppressive when you don't live there and you aren't a poor non-white person.

In that respect you are right. It's far from oppressive

 

Just out of interest how many white people have been killed by police?  And can you name one?

 

[Anon]

16 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Context? OK. The US is far from oppressive when you don't live there and you aren't a poor non-white person.

In that respect you are right. It's far from oppressive

For anyone who is actually interested I strongly suggest you spend time looking into each of these cases, if just to have a laugh at the blatant misrepresentation on display here. Some of these are certainly cases of police brutality, but many are results of people refusing to comply with police orders or violently assaulting people.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

16 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Just out of interest how many white people have been killed by police?  And can you name one?

I’m not wading into the “Is the US oppressive?” debate, but, while police brutality affects everyone, it appears to affect ethnic minorities disproportionately.

I agree with you in that just picking out single cases is misleading, but so too is saying “Yeah but it happens to white people too”.

[TramRam]

32 minutes ago, Anon said:

For anyone who is actually interested I strongly suggest you spend time looking into each of these cases, if just to have a laugh at the blatant misrepresentation on display here. Some of these are certainly cases of police brutality, but many are results of people refusing to comply with police orders or violently assaulting people.

A shame that this Lady Justine Ruszczyk is not on the list....Killed by a Black Minneapolis(again)Police officer.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/us/minneapolis-police-noor-verdict.html

Edit

The Minneapolis Police force hasn't learned a thing since.

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I’m not wading into the “Is the US oppressive?” debate, but, while police brutality affects everyone, it appears to affect ethnic minorities disproportionately.

I agree with you in that just picking out single cases is misleading, but so too is saying “Yeah but it happens to white people too”.

I'm not denying that racism isn't a big problem in the US, it goes back decades and successive governments have failed to tackle it but its also not as clear cut as the media and current far left Democrats have you believe.

The number of people shot to death by police can be seen here;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

And this is an interesting article into police shootings;

https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/the-truth-behind-racial-disparities-in-fatal-police-shootings/

It is terrible when incidents like George Floyd happen and America doesn't seem to be learning very quickly from them.  But police do go to prison for crimes and not everyone thats killed is innocent.

[Angry Ram]

40 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Context? OK. The US is far from oppressive when you don't live there and you aren't a poor non-white person.

In that respect you are right. It's far from oppressive

Behave..

[Stive Pesley]

27 minutes ago, Anon said:

For anyone who is actually interested I strongly suggest you spend time looking into each of these cases, if just to have a laugh at the blatant misrepresentation on display here. Some of these are certainly cases of police brutality, but many are results of people refusing to comply with police orders or violently assaulting people.

Have a laugh? Nice

Not really the point though is it. No one is saying that  refusing to comply with police orders or being violent is right, and shouldn't be acted upon by the police. The point is that the response from the police should be proportionate. The use of lethal force is not proportionate.

You probably phrased it badly because it sounds a bit like you're blaming the victims here

[Angry Ram]

10 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'm not denying that racism isn't a big problem in the US, it goes back decades and successive governments have failed to tackle it but its also not as clear cut as the media and current far left Democrats have you believe.

The number of people shot to death by police can be seen here;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

And this is an interesting article into police shootings;

https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/the-truth-behind-racial-disparities-in-fatal-police-shootings/

It is terrible when incidents like George Floyd happen and America doesn't seem to be learning very quickly from them.  But police do go to prison for crimes and not everyone thats killed is innocent.

That might burst a few bubbles.

[Stive Pesley]

11 minutes ago, maxjam said:

not everyone thats killed is innocent

but how many of them deserved the use of lethal force against them?

[Stagtime]

40 minutes ago, maxjam said:

 

Just out of interest how many white people have been killed by police?  And can you name one?

 

Australian Justine Damond Ruszczyk, unarmed. Mohamed Noor sentenced to 12 1/2 years.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

11 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I'm not denying that racism isn't a big problem in the US, it goes back decades and successive governments have failed to tackle it but its also not as clear cut as the media and current far left Democrats have you believe.

The number of people shot to death by police can be seen here;

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/

And this is an interesting article into police shootings;

https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2019/the-truth-behind-racial-disparities-in-fatal-police-shootings/

It is terrible when incidents like George Floyd happen and America doesn't seem to be learning very quickly from them.  But police do go to prison for crimes and not everyone thats killed is innocent.

I know it's not as clear cut as some would have me believe. I'm fully aware of the bubble-like nature of social media, particularly when the vast majority of people I see on social media are 20-year-old university students. 

However, as suggested in my previous posts, I think both 'sides' are guilty of being a bit reductive and taking away from the real issues at hand. For want of a better term, and knowing full well that this isn't a typical political issue (but using the term for the sake of clarity, as you'll know exactly what I mean), 'the left' tend to isolate incidents and use it to fuel their argument when it's simply not statistically representative (isolated incidents should never be used to back up an argument about institutional problems). On the other hand, 'the right', seem to focus on this misrepresentation and take the argument off into tangents, taking focus away from the genuine issues.

I myself might be guilty of conflating my own personal experience with a wider narrative, but it's just what I see quite frequently.

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I’m not wading into the “Is the US oppressive?” debate, but, while police brutality affects everyone, it appears to affect ethnic minorities disproportionately.

I agree with you in that just picking out single cases is misleading, but so too is saying “Yeah but it happens to white people too”.

I don't want to wade in either as I've not really got a strong opinion or an educated one

But... while there has been a struggle for African Americans to rise up out of the gutter and their communities have certainly been neglected by the powers that be. 

Isn't there an argument that deprived areas see more crime and violence? If these deprived areas are largely made up of ethnic minorities then wouldn't that go some way to explaining the lack of balance

I argued the same point before but that was related to the UK. I don't know a great deal about the States

But a cop patrolling the Beverley Hills/Manhattan is not in the same situation as one patrolling South Central/Bronx. 

Where would you say there is more crime in LA? The ghettos or the suburbs? Where is safer for police patrols? 

I would have thought even the most pro black governor/mayor would have a heavier more ruthless police presence in the ghettos than anywhere else. More crime, more police, more arrests. 

I do believe there are cases of blatant racist police brutality. Like this case is terrible. 

[maxjam]

3 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

but how many of them deserved the use of lethal force against them?

The white victims or the black victims?  Or both?

According to the research carried out by Michigan State University the vast majority (between 90% and 95%) of the civilians shot by officers were actively attacking police or other citizens when they were shot and 90% were armed with a weapon when they were shot.

I personally don't think anyone deserves lethal force to be used against them but if you're put in a situation that leaves you with no choice but to kill an attacker to save the victim then so be it.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

13 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I don't want to wade in either as I've not really got a strong opinion or an educated one

But... while there has been a struggle for African Americans to rise up out of the gutter and their communities have certainly been neglected by the powers that be. 

Isn't there an argument that deprived areas see more crime and violence? If these deprived areas are largely made up of ethnic minorities then wouldn't that go some way to explaining the lack of balance

I argued the same point before but that was related to the UK. I don't know a great deal about the States

But a cop patrolling the Beverley Hills/Manhattan is not in the same situation as one patrolling South Central/Bronx. 

Where would you say there is more crime in LA? The ghettos or the suburbs? Where is safer for police patrols? 

I would have thought even the most pro black governor/mayor would have a heavier more ruthless police presence in the ghettos than anywhere else. More crime, more police, more arrests. 

I do believe there are cases of blatant racist police brutality. Like this case is terrible. 

It's difficult. There are reports of Covid-19 affecting BAME people disproportionately because they tend to live in more concentrated, less salubrious areas.

There are obviously loads of reasons why that's the case. But I think you can definitely look at the way society is structured as a potential cause. I saw an English study where two identical CVs were sent out, one with a typical English name and another with an Asian name (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-38751307). The former got far more interview invitations than the latter. That suggests that we have a problem that's likely subconscious and is holding minority communities back. The US is recognised as having even more issues than us as well.

So, even if the clustering of crime does play a part in the disproportionate figures, it doesn't necessarily mean that institutional issues aren't one of the root causes.

[maxjam]

12 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

However, as suggested in my previous posts, I think both 'sides' are guilty of being a bit reductive and taking away from the real issues at hand.

Absolutely, there are two sides to most stories but with cases like this in the US there are about fifty sides.

America has been a tinder box for decades and what we're seeing now is the various factions of the culture war all believing they are right, zealously so.

Up until the election (and its inevitable fall out) the USA is imo in serious danger of a second civil war that will have repercussions around the world.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

1 hour ago, 1of4 said:

Can't believe Trump, he stands in front of a church as a photo opportunity. Then makes a speech saying he will use the full force the military to stop the protests. He says he his doing this to protect the nation. Why did he also say it would preserve the second amendment, which is the right to bare arms. This is an open invitation for all the white supremacist to come out on to the streets with their automatic rifles.

Is this moron trying to incite even more violence on the streets of America than there already is

He also got the police to teargas the people in front of the church so he could pose with a Bible, even though he comes across as the type of guy who would rather read porn magazines.

[maxjam]

38 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

That might burst a few bubbles.

Doubt it, most people only see what they want to see.

[Highgate]

37 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Doubt it, most people only see what they want to see.

Some will I suppose, but others will ignore or deny what they don't want to see.  That's humans for you ? 

It's a difficult issue this,  obviously minorities are disproportionately shot by the police, that stat is undeniable. But as already mentioned those very groups are also often economically disadvantaged and that poverty may lead them to be involved in more crime, so that should be taken into account too.  A stat that might be more useful would be what percentage of police encounters with white suspects result in injury or death versus what percentage of police encounters with non-white suspects results in injury or death.  If that stat were to show a bias...then the situation would be clear.

What we do know for sure is that minorities certainly feel victimized......I'm guessing they not imagining it, but it would be helpful if there were clear data to back it up. 

Also it's alarming how trigger happy and comfortable with violence the US police force is compared to Europe......I'd rather be stopped by the Russian police, at least I could probably bribe my way out of that situation !