Van der MoodHoover Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 Just now, G STAR RAM said: All well and good in theory but does it work in practice? And where is the money coming from? Why doesn't anyone ever ask where the money went when successive tory administrations sold the family silver? Where's all the infrastructure that we got from their judicious investment of the proceeds of OUR assets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 31 minutes ago, jono said: I think that is fair enough, but I still want to challenge this “profit” thing like it’s an evil entity .. the assumption that a cut disappears to the Bahamas. It doesn’t .. it gets paid as dividends to shareholders .. who are primarily investment funds that get money to buy the shares from folk paying in to pensions. The profit gets paid out as pensions for millions of ordinary people. .. I think in these utilities / essential services / near monopolies there is a strong argument for capping executive pay and for having a regulator with teeth but profit per se really tends to mean well run and efficient. The state via nationalisation is usually worse at this but I’d acknowledge perhaps it might be better at long term planning. .. hence in a private sector op you need a well founded regulatory structure. It would be great to have an open and honest national debate about public ownership of vital services.. Full disclosure of how much is siphoned off by tax dodgers, the true cost of private v public, long term planning, etc etc .....I don’t think we’d ever get a real debate, too many vested interests, but a determined and united Labour Party could force the agenda if they had the political will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 37 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Why doesn't anyone ever ask where the money went when successive tory administrations sold the family silver? Where's all the infrastructure that we got from their judicious investment of the proceeds of OUR assets? Personally, my main concern about what is happening going forward rather than what has happened in the past. Thinking of the past decade though we have had austerity forced upon us and still the country is in a mess, hence why I'm sceptical about everything being nationalised and being run properly, I just dont understand where the money is coming from? Given that Labours latest manifesto failed to account for a £58bn liability forgive me for not trusting them too much when it comes to figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 13 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Personally, my main concern about what is happening going forward rather than what has happened in the past. Thinking of the past decade though we have had austerity forced upon us and still the country is in a mess, hence why I'm sceptical about everything being nationalised and being run properly, I just dont understand where the money is coming from? Given that Labours latest manifesto failed to account for a £58bn liability forgive me for not trusting them too much when it comes to figures. Right. Look forward then. 100bn+ for HS2. Lots of aspiration for "investment " in the north to repay the voters, now a bigger dollop for northern Ireland. So instead of continuing on and on about funding for a program that isn't going to happen, why not challenge the bunch that are now empowered to spend all this money - where is IT coming from? And let's see how well the ideology of attracting private capital into our infrastructure has worked out Sizewell and Hinkley Point for example? But yeah, keep carping about a dead voted down manifesto whilst the rest of it turns to poo, brought to you by the ideologues who've managed to sell our assets, blow the cash without you noticing, and then convince you that it's the other lot who are the lunatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 54 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said: It would be great to have an open and honest national debate about public ownership of vital services.. Full disclosure of how much is siphoned off by tax dodgers, the true cost of private v public, long term planning, etc etc .....I don’t think we’d ever get a real debate, too many vested interests, but a determined and united Labour Party could force the agenda if they had the political will. Add into that a debate about generational fairness and how do you dial back from each ageing generation expecting the next one to pay for all their care. Not sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 14, 2020 Author Share Posted January 14, 2020 14 minutes ago, Van der MoodHoover said: Right. Look forward then. 100bn+ for HS2. Lots of aspiration for "investment " in the north to repay the voters, now a bigger dollop for northern Ireland. So instead of continuing on and on about funding for a program that isn't going to happen, why not challenge the bunch that are now empowered to spend all this money - where is IT coming from? And let's see how well the ideology of attracting private capital into our infrastructure has worked out Sizewell and Hinkley Point for example? But yeah, keep carping about a dead voted down manifesto whilst the rest of it turns to poo, brought to you by the ideologues who've managed to sell our assets, blow the cash without you noticing, and then convince you that it's the other lot who are the lunatics. Yeah fair comments. Apart from overlooking who sold off our gold reserves and still left the country near bankrupt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: All well and good in theory but does it work in practice? And where is the money coming from? There is a good case to be made that it is cheaper to have services in public ownership than private. Borrowing is certainly cheaper and you can make longer term decisions instead of worrying about short term stock market driven targets. Like I said earlier, an open and honest debate on how we run vital services would be my main target for Labour. Force the debate, don’t let the corporate media choose the narrative, get out there and make the case for public ownership. I believe a strong public sector would act as a counterbalance to the private sectors worst excesses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 40 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Personally, my main concern about what is happening going forward rather than what has happened in the past. Thinking of the past decade though we have had austerity forced upon us and still the country is in a mess, hence why I'm sceptical about everything being nationalised and being run properly, I just dont understand where the money is coming from? Given that Labours latest manifesto failed to account for a £58bn liability forgive me for not trusting them too much when it comes to figures. I’d add that the money from those sales I suspect basically went in to the current account of the time, to pay for numerous public services and schemes that we haven’t been able to honestly afford for a very long time because we have a huge trade deficit and have done since our industry has dwindled away and the number of workers versus the number of oldsters did an about face. Yeah you could argue that the family silver got sold but it was to pay bills. And in many cases the governments of the day got the silver on the cheap too. Ok ok some clever sods skimmed a bit off the top and money was wasted, Of course they did and the same thing happens in a nationalised sector too, it always will. we need to look forward and find a system that works .. it isn’t a fake Utopia from a communist / far left playbook. That’s old hat and it failed. It has also failed in the present day too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 10 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: The fact that we are debating stuff that no one actually talks or cares about in shops and factories, shows that the media has divided us on spurious grounds to stop us talking about ever growing class sizes, creeping privatisation of the NHS, savage cuts in social and elderly care, the gradual decline from a civilised, caring society to a dog eat dog, race to the bottom state the right will take us to if unchecked. Oh no, we have a culture war denier! Didn't you know that Labour lost the last election because of Antifa? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Van der MoodHoover Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Yeah fair comments. Apart from overlooking who sold off our gold reserves and still left the country near bankrupt. Come on mate.....you're more intelligent than simply repeating a load of old tropes and suggesting a causal link that never existed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Personally, my main concern about what is happening going forward rather than what has happened in the past. I like this new year's resolution... 1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said: Apart from overlooking who sold off our gold reserves and still left the country near bankrupt. Oops - you can't help yourself can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 3 hours ago, maxjam said: Because it was a film about an angry white male, the media classes were screaming from behind their keyboards that white men can't possibly be victims, it would spark incel violence and other such inane ramblings. The Guardian gave it 2/5 stars review in the days before it came out. Then when it actually started getting good reviews from a sane audience that didn't have a clue what the fuss was about published a second review and gave it 4/5 stars. Go figure. The reviewer who gave it a bad review still doesn’t like it. the second review (the observer) was by a different reviewer in a different paper. I went figured. But don’t let that get in your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, jono said: we need to look forward and find a system that works .. it isn’t a fake Utopia from a communist / far left playbook. That’s old hat and it failed. It has also failed in the present day too. No one's talking about communism. The private sector will still make washing powder, cars, biscuits etc....I'm suggesting that what I call vital public services, things we need to run the country in a civilised way, future energy decisions for instance can't just be taken with the profit margin as the main factor. Doctors surgeries now employ Business Managers, not all decisions are guaranteed to be in the patients best interests, the practice has to balance its books...... As a country, our government should have the best interests of the people who live here as the guiding principle. Red lining the important things would take the pressure off the professionals who run the system and allow decisions to be made that may seem expensive to start with but turns out to save in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 12 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: The reviewer who gave it a bad review still doesn’t like it. But don’t let that get in your way. Yeah I saw, not sure what thats getting in the way of though? The Guardian still has two reviews available for it and the widespread condemnation and fear mongering it received from the media is easy to find with google. Ironically, after The Guardians initial mediocre review and other dismissive articles they also posted one of the best takes on the film. Probably after the sent someone that lives outside of the bubble to go watch it. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/10/joker-far-right-warning-austerity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, maxjam said: Yeah I saw, not sure what thats getting in the way of though? The Guardian still has two reviews available for it and the widespread condemnation and fear mongering it received from the media is easy to find with google. Ironically, after The Guardians initial mediocre review and other dismissive articles they also posted one of the best takes on the film. Probably after the sent someone that lives outside of the bubble to go watch it. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/10/joker-far-right-warning-austerity You know how opinion pieces work, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 14, 2020 Share Posted January 14, 2020 4 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said: You know how opinion pieces work, right? Yup. Is that your whole question or is there a point I've missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 7 hours ago, SchtivePesley said: I like this new year's resolution... Oops - you can't help yourself can you? It was in direct response to the criticism of the Conservatives being the ones that have 'managed to sell our assets, blow the cash without you noticing'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 Like this from Jess Phillips https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/14/trust-politics-public-mistrust-labour Nothing about identity politics weirdly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted January 15, 2020 Author Share Posted January 15, 2020 30 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Like this from Jess Phillips https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/14/trust-politics-public-mistrust-labour Nothing about identity politics weirdly! So the woman who only months ago was criticising Boris Johnson for using the word humbug opens this article by referring to him as 'the blond baboon'. Short memories these politicians, unfortunately for them, the electorate have much better memories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted January 15, 2020 Share Posted January 15, 2020 32 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: So the woman who only months ago was criticising Boris Johnson for using the word humbug opens this article by referring to him as 'the blond baboon'. Short memories these politicians, unfortunately for them, the electorate have much better memories. I especially hope that is true when Brexit starts to bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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