The Politics Thread 2020

[jono]

I think it is a great pity we seem to disappear in to our left/right camps

This is about abuse of power. That can come (as it often has ) from status in society .. rich or powerful or simply influential people in their sphere managed to get things stuffed under the carpet .. priests, school teachers, politicians. Now There is a new power that has its own carpet sweeper.  .. The power to use our kinder more tolerant world to their advantage. It can be a Muslim grooming gang who for cultural or warped religious reasons perpetrate a crime or certain activists in the LGBTQ scene who cry hate crime at the simplest criticism. There is nothing new or racial here .. it’s abuse of power or just being plain devious. .. we need to remember that nations/races/political affiliates are not evil ... just that some People are evil. We need to be aware of the tools they use to hide their evil which are changing as society changes. 

[G STAR RAM]

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Failings at every level and continuing to this day.

There is no excuse for not investigating crimes especially when you know who both the victims and the perpetrators are.  Regardless of who is committing these crimes and why looking the other way was gross negligence.   

Dancing around the definition of the crime or whether or not to call them grooming gangs is putting political correctness before the safety of children.  Its hard enough to uncover victims of child abuse when its done by family members but in cases such as this when victims and abusers are widely known continuing to look the other way through fear of 'sensitive community issues' is almost as bad as the crime itself imo.

As part of a wider scheme to include child abuse by family members/friends etc I'd have informational videos played in schools, similar to the ones I used to see as a kid. 

Doesnt look good but I'm going to wait for some 'expert' opinion from someone sat in a university before I pass judgement!

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, jono said:

I think it is a great pity we seem to disappear in to our left/right camps

This is about abuse of power. That can come (as it often has ) from status in society .. rich or powerful or simply influential people in their sphere managed to get things stuffed under the carpet .. priests, school teachers, politicians. Now There is a new power that has its own carpet sweeper.  .. The power to use our kinder more tolerant world to their advantage. It can be a Muslim grooming gang who for cultural or warped religious reasons perpetrate a crime or certain activists in the LGBTQ scene who cry hate crime at the simplest criticism. There is nothing new or racial here .. it’s abuse of power or just being plain devious. .. we need to remember that nations/races/political affiliates are not evil ... just that some People are evil. We need to be aware of the tools they use to hide their evil which are changing as society changes. 

...and investigate the people accordingly, especially where there are trends of the behaviour being repeated...

[jono]

17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

...and investigate the people accordingly, especially where there are trends of the behaviour being repeated...

Sort of .. but you can’t start investigating Asian gangs or groups of old priests just because “it’s typical behaviour so they must all be at it “ that never ends happily

Each case has to be evidence based - and not tip toed or instigated round because of a certain status. Catholic priest or Asian grouping. Forget all that .. it is about investigating wrong doing without fear or favour and dismissing their assumed protection mechanisms

. You’re an old catholic priest with 50 years in the Church .. your a Muslim minority youth .. doesn’t matter ... what is the evidence. ? .. Your faith or status is no protection. Clean clinical hard assed Analysis. ( sure you use your knowledge of patterns of behaviour .. that’s good police work and the joy of history, it gives hints and tips ) 

[G STAR RAM]

28 minutes ago, jono said:

Sort of .. but you can’t start investigating Asian gangs or groups of old priests just because “it’s typical behaviour so they must all be at it “ that never ends happily

Each case has to be evidence based - and not tip toed or instigated round because of a certain status. Catholic priest or Asian grouping. Forget all that .. it is about investigating wrong doing without fear or favour and dismissing their assumed protection mechanisms

. You’re an old catholic priest with 50 years in the Church .. your a Muslim minority youth .. doesn’t matter ... what is the evidence. ? .. Your faith or status is no protection. Clean clinical hard assed Analysis. ( sure you use your knowledge of patterns of behaviour .. that’s good police work and the joy of history, it gives hints and tips 

Until someone actually acknowledges there is a problem and has the balls to say it though nothing will change.

[cstand]

5 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

I'm not engaging with this debate any more as the topic seems to be under sieg from the right wingers

Just have a read of some proper research. I know how you all love to claim you take your views from a balanced set of sources...

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0306396819895727

 

I have know doubt if it was white English men abusing Muslim women you would not be running away from the debate.

[jono]

2 minutes ago, cstand said:

I have know doubt if it was white English men abusing Muslim women you would not be running away from the debate.

Schtive is a good bloke with a good heart, so I can’t go going there. 

But there are far too many of all of us who allow ideology to trump truth and common sense. .. minority groups across the spectrum are playing on this. The police, government and society needs to wake up to this. 

[Stive Pesley]

6 minutes ago, cstand said:

I have know doubt if it was white English men abusing Muslim women you would not be running away from the debate.

What a ridiculous thing to say. Jono has nailed it really, yet still the knuckles drag "...yes but Muslims"

 

[cstand]

The extreme left wing people are the worse knuckle draggers don’t worry about that

 

[TramRam]

I was never much into Politics in my youth, More concerning to me was football and beer, The Winter of discontent around 78-79 Callaghan Government(Labour) brought Politics to the fore, Bins not emptied, The dead were not being buried, Roads weren't being gritted a pretty miserable time, Unions were the power, Labour need the Unions and the Unions need Labour, Until pay and conditions are concerned.

Then along came Thatcher, Strike benefits were cut, Those on strike couldn't get mortgage relief and homes were under threat of being lost, Slowly Thatcher was getting the upper hand, Her ratings were very low due to reigning in social payments, Then along came the Falklands War, The General Belgrano was sunk when sailing away from the Falklands by HMS Conqueror known as a Hunter Killer, We won the conflict thanks to our forces(255 died)and the USAs intelligence, Thatcher beat the miners, Closed a shed load of pits circa 200, Found an ally in the UDM(Notts miners)a breakaway from the NUM who carried on working through the strike, Thatcher hated Unions and near as damn destoyed them.

Years later the Torys are hungry for a killing, Thatcher was the victim and Major came along Infighting in the Torys and a Charming man called Tony Blair came along, A very different kind of Politician, Suited and booted a gleaming smile and a change was on it's way, Things looked pretty good for a while, Until the EU and freedom of movement, Labour expected around Half a million Polish to arrive on these shores, Circa 2.5/3million came, Then we had the War in Iraq(179 service personel were killed), WMD was looked for but never found, Blair sweat talked his way in Westminster to get the vote and help his buddy Bush junior, It's often described as an illegal war because opponents and his own backbenchers said Blair lied.

This is what John Prescot cost the British tax payer.

Prescott seeks 10,000 job cuts in fire pay deal

By George Jones and Sandra Laville

12:01AM GMT 27 Nov 2002

The Government toughened the terms for a settlement of the fire dispute last night by disclosing that as many as 10,000 jobs could be lost over the next three years through radical changes to working practices.

Ministers dashed hopes of an early settlement by admitting publicly for the first time that they were seeking a smaller, more efficient fire service in return for agreeing to a substantial pay increase.

John Prescott, the Deputy Prime Minister, told the Commons that early retirement in the service provided an opportunity to discuss "more efficient utilisation of labour".

The admission that the Government was looking for substantial job cuts among 55,000 full-time firemen angered both the Fire Brigades Union and their local government employers, who are responsible for negotiating the pay settlement.

Andy Gilchrist, the union's general secretary, who was in the public gallery for Mr Prescott's Commons statement, said the Government had finally "come clean" that the Bain review into the fire service would result in a massive loss of jobs and fire appliances and the closure of fire stations.

Another of John Prescotts decisions

A “white elephant” project to build new fire control centres which wasted £482m of public money is still costing taxpayers millions of pounds – three years after it was scrapped.

The previous Labour Government announced in 2004 that 46 local fire and rescue services would be concentrated in nine regional centres. But after a string of delays and problems the plan was abandoned by the Coalition in 2010.

Today Commons spending watchdogs warned that another £82m being spent on clearing up the mess is also in danger of proving a waste of money.

Four of the nine centres are still empty and seven of the 22 locally-led projects that replaced the ill-fated FiReControl system are running late, two by 12 months, and expected savings have fallen by £2m to £126m.

Back to me

The Labour party are in the pockets of the Unions, The Tory party are in the pockets of business, Governments cost the taxpayer billions on vanity projects each Political term, The new project HS2.

Politicians are like ashtrays on motorbikes....a waste of time.

 

 

[ramit]

4 hours ago, cstand said:

The extreme left wing people are the worse knuckle draggers don’t worry about that

 

[G STAR RAM]

11 hours ago, SchtivePesley said:

What a ridiculous thing to say. Jono has nailed it really, yet still the knuckles drag "...yes but Muslims"

Personally, I dont think referring to people as knuckle draggers helps the situation either.

So just to be clear who is it ok to criticise and in what circumstances?

You go on about creating a fair society, do you not think it would be good to try and create a society where young, vulnerable girls are not targeted by Asian grooming gangs?

[jono]

1 hour ago, G STAR RAM said:

 

So just to be clear who is it ok to criticise and in what circumstances?

 

This is the key point.

Just as in the past, let us say too many in Priesthood/Church or Scout hut got away with it because of misplaced deference, so we now have to throw off the shackles of faux respect to all self named groups who seek protection by virtue of a particular status definition. That includes ethnic minorities.
Left and right or Conservative and radical  have their “interest groups” that they will be too softly softly with. Rochdale, Manchester and others have in recent times shown that some of the newer “interest groups” have a had an easy ride when wrong doing has taken place. 
 

high court judge, business icon, Asian youth ... the law should be the same 

The good intent of ethical and decent policies towards minorities are being misused by criminals. The law needs to learn how to tackle this - along with the left all sorts of well meaning folk have been slow to recognise this. 

 

[Stive Pesley]

29 minutes ago, jono said:

This is the key point.

Just as in the past, let us say too many in Priesthood/Church or Scout hut got away with it because of misplaced deference, so we now have to throw off the shackles of faux respect to all self named groups who seek protection by virtue of a particular status definition. That includes ethnic minorities.
Left and right or Conservative and radical  have their “interest groups” that they will be too softly softly with. Rochdale, Manchester and others have in recent times shown that some of the newer “interest groups” have a had an easy ride when wrong doing has taken place. 
 

high court judge, business icon, Asian youth ... the law should be the same 

The good intent of ethical and decent policies towards minorities are being misused by criminals. The law needs to learn how to tackle this - along with the left all sorts of well meaning folk have been slow to recognise this. 

 

Thanks again for the sensitive and thoughtful approach to the subject. A shame that others don't have the same eloquence and balance

I agree with everything you've said here. The only concern should be for protecting the vulnerable from being victims of CSE.

My issue in this thread is with people who seem to think their right to single out particular perpetrators based on race as the problem is more important than tackling CSE on every level. Or at least that's how it seems - given their keeness to drag it back to that subject.

Ironic given the lectures on identity politics, and how they think people and issues should be treated on an individual basis and not collectivised for political reasons.

 

[maxjam]

6 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

My issue in this thread is with people who seem to think their right to single out particular perpetrators based on race as the problem is more important than tackling CSE on every level. Or at least that's how it seems - given their keeness to drag it back to that subject.

Ironic given the lectures on identity politics, and how they think people and issues should be treated on an individual basis and not collectivised for political reasons.

I gave that a laughing emoji, am I doing it right?

[Stive Pesley]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I gave that a laughing emoji, am I doing it right?

Well if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at? ?

[maxjam]

17 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Well if you can't laugh at yourself, who can you laugh at? ?

Yup, lets continue to trivialise the issue and claim the moral high ground.  Lets perpetuate identity politics and deny political correctness was ever a factor.  Lets ignore comments about the most common form of child abuse being incredibly difficult to spot and shift blame away from those that wilfully ignored cases of child abuse in which the perpetrators were widely known and blame those that want action taken for being driven by your perceived notion that its just about their hatred of race.  Then lets end it with a joke.

We're probably already pushing the limits with some of this conversation so I'm out.  

[Stive Pesley]

12 minutes ago, maxjam said:

Yup, lets continue to trivialise the issue and claim the moral high ground.  Lets perpetuate identity politics and deny political correctness was ever a factor.  Lets ignore comments about the most common form of child abuse being incredibly difficult to spot and shift blame away from those that wilfully ignored cases of child abuse in which the perpetrators were widely known and blame those that want action taken for being driven by your perceived notion that its just about their hatred of race.  Then lets end it with a joke.

We're probably already pushing the limits with some of this conversation so I'm out.  

Good - get over to Telegram

[jono]

@SchtivePesley .. you lost me a bit in that last paragraph, but maybe I misunderstood ? 
 

I think people and crime should be on an individual basis. .. yes part of an actual investigation would logically look for patterns and groups, that is just detective work and local knowledge of conditions and personalities on the ground.

You can’t put yellow stars on people or for that matter brand them because they went Eton. 

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, jono said:

@SchtivePesley .. you lost me a bit in that last paragraph, but maybe I misunderstood ? 
 

The last paragraph wasn't a reference to anything you wrote - but an aside to the right-wing posters who continually bleat in this thread about identity politics.

5 minutes ago, jono said:

I think people and crime should be on an individual basis. .. yes part of an actual investigation would logically look for patterns and groups, that is just detective work and local knowledge of conditions and personalities on the ground.

Agreed

5 minutes ago, jono said:

You can’t put yellow stars on people or for that matter brand them because they went Eton. 

Also agreed - and the same goes for Asian men. Ugly right-wing tropes about "asian grooming gangs" being "the most common form of child abuse" are unhelpful. ALL child abuse is wrong, and people continually dragging the conversation back to racial generalisations belies an unfortunate  prejudice that disrespects every victim. The most common type of child abuse by a vast margin is domestic