Andicis Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 hours ago, ramit said: There was no incentive for Iran to murder it's own people. If the plane was shot down, it was done by those who had something to gain from the act. Then I have some questions. Why did Iran immediately claim engine failure, despite it being impossible for them to know that so quickly, and why won't they give the black box to investigators? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 35 minutes ago, i-Ram said: Anyone heard from storming @Norman recently? I see there was a major issue at HMP Whitemoor yesterday. Pretty sure he is a prison officer somewhere over that way. Hopefully I am just worrying unnecessarily but I hope it won’t be too long before he is on here again chatting mince. Talk to us Norm! Just read about that. Hope you are all ok @Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 45 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Just read about that. Hope you are all ok @Norman Last logged on at 7am this morning according to his profile, so touch wood he's OK. Show us a sign Norm ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Andicis said: Then I have some questions. Why did Iran immediately claim engine failure, despite it being impossible for them to know that so quickly, and why won't they give the black box to investigators? i don't know, but can guess i suppose. People on the ground saw fire coming from the aircraft, perhaps from one of the engines. On the same day a 737-800 engine emitted fire in an airport in Israel. Would agree that making such an announcement so early is not advisable. As i understand it, they are not legally required to hand over the black box. The incident happened in their territory and their investigators are handling it, as is the norm. i see the American and Canadian authorities are claiming it was shot down by Iran and say they have intelligence proving it. If they have such proof, they need to produce it, or be suspected of lying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, ramit said: i don't know, but can guess i suppose. People on the ground saw fire coming from the aircraft, perhaps from one of the engines. On the same day a 737-800 engine emitted fire in an airport in Israel. Would agree that making such an announcement so early is not advisable. As i understand it, they are not legally required to hand over the black box. The incident happened in their territory and their investigators are handling it, as is the norm. i see the American and Canadian authorities are claiming it was shot down by Iran and say they have intelligence proving it. If they have such proof, they need to produce it, or be suspected of lying. But from what I understand, the plane was examined a few days before and had no issues, with an airline that had never had a crash before. There was shrapnel damage in the fuselage. Or what appears that way. I'm not huge into conspiracy theories, but I don't think anyone should believe the engine failure story. Seems like absolute fiction. They're aren't legally required no, but why would they not choose to work with investigators should it have been the cause they claimed it was? Why does the US/Canadian side have to prove it, Canada in particular which has no reason to lie, but the Iranian side doesn't have to back up their claims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 https://news.sky.com/story/iran-plane-crash-what-the-new-video-shows-and-why-it-seems-genuine-11905052 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Andicis said: But from what I understand, the plane was examined a few days before and had no issues, with an airline that had never had a crash before. There was shrapnel damage in the fuselage. Or what appears that way. I'm not huge into conspiracy theories, but I don't think anyone should believe the engine failure story. Seems like absolute fiction. They're aren't legally required no, but why would they not choose to work with investigators should it have been the cause they claimed it was? Why does the US/Canadian side have to prove it, Canada in particular which has no reason to lie, but the Iranian side doesn't have to back up their claims? Perhaps they don't trust western authorities to reach factual conclusions. Can understand why, as the conclusion that Ukrainian separatists shot down MH17 was always denied by them and Russia, an Iran ally. When authorities in countries make such a serious claim, of course they need to prove it. Their word alone is not enough and why shouldn't they show such proof if they have it? A matter of national security perhaps, heh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 Just now, ramit said: Perhaps they don't trust western authorities to reach factual conclusions. Can understand why, as the conclusion that Ukrainian separatists shot down MH17 was always denied by them and Russia, an Iran ally. When authorities in countries make such a serious claim, of course they need to prove it. Their word alone is not enough and why shouldn't they show such proof if they have it? A matter of national security perhaps, heh? But it doesn't make sense for Iran to claim engine failure when it's patently obvious the jet was shot down. Why would they do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, Andicis said: But it doesn't make sense for Iran to claim engine failure when it's patently obvious the jet was shot down. Why would they do that? How is it patently obvious? The investigation has just begun. Don't make the same mistake that they did in reaching a conclusion too early. Also, as i posted earlier. Do you really think that Iran AA systems mistook an ascending passenger plane that had just taken off, which they had ample information about for a large enemy plane? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 9 minutes ago, ramit said: How is it patently obvious? The investigation has just begun. Don't make the same mistake that they did in reaching a conclusion too early. Also, as i posted earlier. Do you really think that Iran AA systems mistook an ascending passenger plane that had just taken off, which they had ample information about for a large enemy plane? The shrapnel in the fuselage is a good indicator, but apart from that a good model of plane, which was tested and perfectly fine 2 days earlier happened to go down in Tehran at the same time as really high tensions between Iran and the US. Yes, I think Iran made a mistake. Don't believe there was intent behind it, but I absolutely believe they shot it down. All the signs point to that, engine failure is nonsense. The investigation lead by the Iranians? Yeah, not waiting with bated breathe for that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 16 minutes ago, Andicis said: The shrapnel in the fuselage is a good indicator, but apart from that a good model of plane, which was tested and perfectly fine 2 days earlier happened to go down in Tehran at the same time as really high tensions between Iran and the US. Yes, I think Iran made a mistake. Don't believe there was intent behind it, but I absolutely believe they shot it down. All the signs point to that, engine failure is nonsense. The investigation lead by the Iranians? Yeah, not waiting with bated breathe for that one. From The New York Times: "Ukraine’s foreign minister, Vadym Prystaiko, said "the extent of Iran’s cooperation with Ukrainian officials on the ground was “adequate” and that the team was getting access to the plane’s black box flight recorders." i am not ruling out that it was shot down or sabotaged for that matter and have already said the timing is suspicious to me, but that doesn't mean that Iran did it. On a personal note, after the Israel plane engine fire i won't be traveling by 737-800 in the near future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 13 minutes ago, Andicis said: The shrapnel in the fuselage is a good indicator Shrapnel damage can also occur if the engine disintegrates and lets go of its turbine blades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, ramit said: i am not ruling out that it was shot down or sabotaged for that matter and have already said the timing is suspicious to me, but that doesn't mean that Iran did it. If the US or a Western nation had shot down a plane over Iran, don't you think they'd come out and try blame the parties responsible? Or that Iran would be extremely angry about it? Don't Iran have missile defense systems if it came from outside of Iran? I struggle to see how any other party could have done it, to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: If the US or a Western nation had shot down a plane over Iran, don't you think they'd come out and try blame the parties responsible? Or that Iran would be extremely angry about it? Don't Iran have missile defense systems if it came from outside of Iran? I struggle to see how any other party could have done it, to be honest. Of course Iran would be furious over it, but knowing it is not enough, they would need to collect and produce evidence for it. Also, not everything that angers national leaders gets reported, as they may see it in their interest to handle it in other ways. Surely you know this. US and Israeli officials have boasted how their stealth planes and UAV's can enter restricted air space at will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, ramit said: Of course Iran would be furious over it, but knowing it is not enough, they would need to collect and produce evidence for it. Also, not everything that angers national leaders gets reported, as they may see it in their interest to handle it in other ways. Surely you know this. US and Israeli officials have boasted how their stealth planes and UAV's can enter restricted air space at will. I think it's considerably more believable that Iran accidentally shot the plane down, than any conspiracy about other parties. And it certainly wasn't engine failure. No point in discussing the matter more, since clearly we won't agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Andicis said: I think it's considerably more believable that Iran accidentally shot the plane down, than any conspiracy about other parties. And it certainly wasn't engine failure. No point in discussing the matter more, since clearly we won't agree. i have not made up my mind yet, am waiting on further info. Why is it a conspiracy theory when it relates to other parties but not when it pertains to accusations against Iran? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 4 hours ago, i-Ram said: Anyone heard from storming @Norman recently? I see there was a major issue at HMP Whitemoor yesterday. Pretty sure he is a prison officer somewhere over that way. Hopefully I am just worrying unnecessarily but I hope it won’t be too long before he is on here again chatting mince. Talk to us Norm! I am, thanks for asking. Unfortunately things like this happen. Most of us have been seriously assaulted, most of us have to use force on a weekly basis. But this was a bad one. Sometimes you forget when you talk to them on a daily basis just how dangerous some people are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriggRam Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 8 hours ago, Highgate said: How about 'No/I support the protracted and detailed political negotiations involving both governments and the broad spectrum of political opinion in Northern Ireland including the IRA's political wing, involving compromises on both sides that has resulted in a lasting peace to that troubled region'. I'm just working on the tune for that one.... Mmm unfortunately the British military weren’t part of the compromise and now we have blokes in their 70’s being dragged through the courts........the same is not happening the other way because they all got “pardon” letters......from the wonderful Tony bLIER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 41 minutes ago, Barnetbyram said: Mmm unfortunately the British military weren’t part of the compromise and now we have blokes in their 70’s being dragged through the courts........the same is not happening the other way because they all got “pardon” letters......from the wonderful Tony bLIER That's entirely inaccurate. Everyone is part of the compromise and everyone, even if convicted now, will be eligible for early release. That doesn't mean that people can't be convicted for crimes that they haven't been convicted of before. Hence the problems that the British Army are facing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted January 10, 2020 Share Posted January 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Barnetbyram said: Mmm unfortunately the British military weren’t part of the compromise and now we have blokes in their 70’s being dragged through the courts........the same is not happening the other way because they all got “pardon” letters......from the wonderful Tony bLIER The government did recently recind those didn't they? Also if there was some amnesty agreed i would expect that was largly agreed before Tony Blair came to power. John Major was instrumental in the peace process, Tony Blairs role while not insignificant was to finalise it. Im not criticising John major btw, he deserves a lot of credit for his role in the process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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