If Lawrence and Bennett are involved on Saturday?...

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, PodgeyRam said:

That's interesting, I hadn't seen that before. So in that situation, it seems they didn't take a breathalyser test in the station, but took a blood sample. 

Maybe I'm just being dense, but why couldn't they use the second sample? Because the first sample was nowhere to be found and they needed two samples? Or is it something else?

I just threw that out there as I still remember the incident living not far from Graeme Swans house and having been many times to the B and Q in question 

I think it's more of what you can do with a very expensive lawyer who can exploit technicalities to get the desired result 

[PodgeyRam]

4 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

I just threw that out there as I still remember the incident living not far from Graeme Swans house and having been many times to the B and Q in question 

I think it's more of what you can do with a very expensive lawyer who can exploit technicalities to get the desired result 

Well if Lawrence or Bennett try to get it thrown out on a technicality I'd imagine that's an even worse look for them and the club and would subject them to even more abuse from the fans. 

Much better for them to be seen as repentant and accepting of their punishment. 

[RiddingsRam]

24 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Can't tell anyone that they should get behind them. They have to take all the backlash on the chin for being stupid and not getting away with it. That's how you learn. 

But thankfully in this world are people who clean up your poo. We have all needed it from time to time. Somebody to tell us how to get better rather than kick us while we are down. Who hasn't needed that 

You might not agree with Derby and Cocu. That's completely fair. But they might not agree with abandoning these lads. 

If the club feel that the players are emotionally battered from the ordeal and they don't want to tread on them some more then I can't say i have a huge problem with that. 

We don't know the players. But if they really are in deep regret and are suffering then how much further do you push them? 

Maybe the club feels the players will take all their medicine off the fans, the people in the street, their families, their court case and maybe the players just need a little support to help them face it. 

Derby might just say "get out there. Do your job, get on with your life, keep fit, keep playing and face what comes" 

I'm not in to kicking people if they're down. I don't care much that they played (although I don't rate them so...) and I don't care that they were booed. 

Maybe they don't care and are laughing about how much trouble they're in. Maybe they can't cope with much more of a battering. Who knows.

But what point do you want Cocu to take them to? It's easy to advise Cocu and Mel what to do but if those lads were you're responsibility do you feel some duty to guide them? Make sure they learn but also take care of their mental health. 

Everyone needs someone in their corner. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't play. Just saying that when you think you've fecked it all up you really need an arm around you because time travel isn't real

Fantastic post ???

[DazaDunn]

March last year I was hit by a drink driver. It didn’t cost me my life but it cost me several thousands of pounds. If it was 2 minutes earlier, it may have cost me my life as I was stood outside the car with my head in the wheel arch.

I can’t forgive somebody for doing something so idiotic after 8 days, the club needed to ease them back into the squad. Neither were performing incredibly well, it says to me that you’re in our match day squad on price rather than performance. For me it also softens the clubs stance on drink driving. 

[Alph]

1 minute ago, RiddingsRam said:

Fantastic post ???

It's hard to give a fitting punishment to a person you don't understand

With your kids you don't have a punishment set it stone for every rule break. 

You give them just the right amount of hurt. If I say to my oldest that she's let me down then she don't care so long as she's got the iPad. The youngest would rather lose the ipad and the dolls and everything else than think I'm upset with her. 

All you need from people really is to take them to the point where the mistake is engraved on their bones. So it shapes their way forward. For some people they don't need telling. Others have to really get smacked in the face with it. 

We don't know where Bennett and Lawrence are. 

I mean ultimately it was stupid people doing stupid stuff. It's not violent people setting out to hurt someone. 

[wixman1884]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

It's hard to give a fitting punishment to a person you don't understand

With your kids you don't have a punishment set it stone for every rule break. 

You give them just the right amount of hurt. If I say to my oldest that she's let me down then she don't care so long as she's got the iPad. The youngest would rather lose the ipad and the dolls and everything else than think I'm upset with her. 

All you need from people really is to take them to the point where the mistake is engraved on their bones. So it shapes their way forward. For some people they don't need telling. Others have to really get smacked in the face with it. 

We don't know where Bennett and Lawrence are. 

I mean ultimately it was stupid people doing stupid stuff. It's not violent people setting out to hurt someone. 

Very fair and thoughtful posting Alpha.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment and both posts. 

I was surprised with the team sheet but didn't feel drawn emotionally either way. I don't know either lad personally, how they've dealt with the situation, how they've worked in training, who else was responsible. I don't really know enough of the details to write either person off as a human being.

I've done some awful things in my 20s that could have easily, but didn't, lead to terrible consequences. I feel lucky about that and I've had to grow up.

I imagine Bennett and Lawrence are going through a world of hurt right now and if Cocu thinks they should be in the squad I have to trust his deeper understanding of the situation and hope they play well for everyone's sake.

[Gaspode]

Just throwing this out there, but is it possible that Cocu is misjudging the situation because he's Dutch? - having worked with a few Dutch folk, they have a different outlook on life - far more laidback and relaxed about things in general. It may be that Cocu (as he showed with the Forest team selection) just doesn't yet 'get' the strength of feeling for the the club from the fans and doesn't therefore give sufficient consideration to them when making decisions.

My opinion is that the two morons shouldn't be anywhere near the team until they've had their day in court and I'm really not sure what Saturday will be like when/if they run out of the tunnel - I'll still turn up as always, but as things stand, I'm not sure I'll care whether we win if the idiots are involved - as things stand, the club feels like it's drifting away in a direction I don't like - big decisions to make when it gets to renewal time if I can't get the connection back - perhaps I need a test to see whether the club really is 'in my DNA' anymore.....

[Derbyram1]

5 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Just throwing this out there, but is it possible that Cocu is misjudging the situation because he's Dutch? - having worked with a few Dutch folk, they have a different outlook on life - far more laidback and relaxed about things in general. It may be that Cocu (as he showed with the Forest team selection) just doesn't yet 'get' the strength of feeling for the the club from the fans and doesn't therefore give sufficient consideration to them when making decisions.

My opinion is that the two morons shouldn't be anywhere near the team until they've had their day in court and I'm really not sure what Saturday will be like when/if they run out of the tunnel - I'll still turn up as always, but as things stand, I'm not sure I'll care whether we win if the idiots are involved - as things stand, the club feels like it's drifting away in a direction I don't like - big decisions to make when it gets to renewal time if I can't get the connection back - perhaps I need a test to see whether the club really is 'in my DNA' anymore.....

Have you heard yourself?? Get a grip man!!

Did they hurt you ....no, but if what they did affected you emotionally then you really need to take a look at yourself.

[Gaspode]

1 hour ago, Derbyram1 said:

Have you heard yourself?? Get a grip man!!

Did they hurt you ....no, but if what they did affected you emotionally then you really need to take a look at yourself.

Well thanks for your well thought out and carefully worded advice - it's always great to be lectured by the morally bankrupt children of this parish.

To be honest, the more I see of posts telling people they are overreacting or need to get a grip, the less I feel part of the club anymore - some of you folk need to grow up a bit and realise this fiasco has really upset a huge number of people asscoiated with the club. Add in the number of complete **** **** we now seem to have following the club (the Frank effect?) and I'm beginning to think it's time to call it a day......

[rammieib]

20 hours ago, GeoffDerby said:

The rule of law in the UK is a person is innocent until proven guilty. Let’s wait and see the outcome on 15th Oct when all the evidence is provided.  I am not condoning any actions, just saying it’s a little early to judge anyone and both players are entitled to fulfil their contracts, especially as neither has yet been found guilty. 

Yet most reputable companies will suspend an employee for a serious allegation until the result of the investigation is completed. The offence doesn't have to take place during work time and 99% of companies would suspend an employee if it bought shame on their reputation.

[europia]

21 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Yet most reputable companies will suspend an employee for a serious allegation until the result of the investigation is completed. The offence doesn't have to take place during work time and 99% of companies would suspend an employee if it bought shame on their reputation.

Yes absolutely, but we live in a world where pro sportsmen, celebrities, royalty, politicians etc. operate under a different set of rules to the majority of people. 

[rammieib]

1 minute ago, europia said:

Yes absolutely, but we live in a world where pro sportsmen, celebrities, royalty, politicians etc. operate under a different set of rules to the majority of people. 

Our club didn't have to live in that world and I genuinely thought Morris had good morals.....

[DarkFruitsRam7]

20 hours ago, Alpha said:

All you need from people really is to take them to the point where the mistake is engraved on their bones. So it shapes their way forward. For some people they don't need telling. Others have to really get smacked in the face with it. 

And for some, that will be the moment they are caught. I know it's a common argument to say "They're only upset because they've been caught," but I'd suggest that it isn't a good one. Being caught may well have been the slap in the face they needed to realise how stupid they'd been. I assume, and hope, that it was, otherwise I doubt Cocu would have picked them.

[europia]

7 minutes ago, rammieib said:

Our club didn't have to live in that world and I genuinely thought Morris had good morals.....

So did I prior to the Barnsley game. 

[angieram]

1 minute ago, rammieib said:

Our club didn't have to live in that world and I genuinely thought Morris had good morals.....

And maybe he does.

I know this post will be removed as it breaks Forum rules but it seems to me the arguments across several threads over the last few days are between those who have Old Testament morals (an eye for an eye) and those with New Testament morals (let him that is without sin...)* 

Both are moral codes but people who subscribe to one absolutely cannot see the logic of the other.

 

 

 

*Other religions - and indeed non-religious - are available.

[Steve How Hard?]

41 minutes ago, angieram said:

And maybe he does.

I know this post will be removed as it breaks Forum rules but it seems to me the arguments across several threads over the last few days are between those who have Old Testament morals (an eye for an eye) and those with New Testament morals (let him that is without sin...)* 

Both are moral codes but people who subscribe to one absolutely cannot see the logic of the other.

 

 

 

*Other religions - and indeed non-religious - are available.

Strewth @angieram this issue is divisive and complicated enough without bringing religion into it. Just kidding I get where you're coming from. It's one of those where nobody's opinion is gonna be changed. Me I have a simplistic and some may say shallow view of it all. For me football is a release from the mundaneness of everyday life so a win for Derby helps me cope with all the other poo life throws at you. Whilst shocked at the inclusion of both players last night and also proclaiming beforehand that I could think of a multitude of reasons why it wouldn't be a good idea, 3pts would have overridden that for me. I'm not slating anyone for getting heavily invested in this situation but I can't make an informed opinion on this without knowing the full facts. We have to assume the club has the full facts now to make the decision they did yesterday. 

[1of4]

People who drink and drive deserve everything that the law can throw at them.

Why should a person employed by Derby County, who falls under the media spotlight, because they are a local notoriety. Be viewed any different to anyone else, who as committed the same crime. I'm sure there are many local firms who's bosses are allowing convicted drunk drivers to carry on working for them.

[atherstoneram]

29 minutes ago, 1of4 said:

People who drink and drive deserve everything that the law can throw at them.

Why should a person employed by Derby County, who falls under the media spotlight, because they are a local notoriety. Be viewed any different to anyone else, who as committed the same crime. I'm sure there are many local firms who's bosses are allowing convicted drunk drivers to carry on working for them.

I agree with your First sentence entirely.

I know of a situation where 2 people who worked for the same company (different occasions) got convicted of drink driving with totally different outcomes.

The 1st one got caught drink driving after going out for a social drink (his words) but had a drink to many got stopped and convicted but returned to work as normal.

The other driver got stopped and reported for drink driving, while the court case was pending he was suspended from work, after being found guilty was sacked..

The difference being the 1st one had just been out for a drink on his night off.

The 2nd one had been attending a works event so was deemed to have brought the company into disrepute.

He took the company to an industrial trial for unfair dismissal but lost.

I

Because this happened when they had been to an event which the club put on people are quite rightly IMO having a go at the club in their stance on this matter.

The media wouldn't have been all over this if it wasn't a club related event,however it was so the club can naturally expect media attention about how they can't control their players drinking at a club do. Huddlestone posting pics on social media certainly hasn't helped the club either, when attending any event organised by work you are still  representing your place of employment.

I think this is what is getting a lot of peoples backs up.

Other footballers have been mentioned on previous posts but how many were caught after attending a company function.

By the way drink driving under any circunstances is totally wrong

[desirelines]

On 03/10/2019 at 09:01, Gaspode said:

Just throwing this out there, but is it possible that Cocu is misjudging the situation because he's Dutch? - having worked with a few Dutch folk, they have a different outlook on life - far more laidback and relaxed about things in general

Interesting angle, but I'm not sure his nationality has anything to do with it. A family member who works closely with the EU (lol) says that the Dutch people he works with are straight-laced zealots who stuck to the rules rigidly, rather than the easy going types you imagine. I guess there's a big difference socially between those in the political class and an ex-footballer, but I don't think national stereotypes hold much weight. It's far more nuanced than that I reckon. 

Disclaimer: I could be very wrong! 

[Westcumbrianram]

On 02/10/2019 at 23:30, GeoffDerby said:

The rule of law in the UK is a person is innocent until proven guilty. Let’s wait and see the outcome on 15th Oct when all the evidence is provided.  I am not condoning any actions, just saying it’s a little early to judge anyone and both players are entitled to fulfil their contracts, especially as neither has yet been found guilty. 

What are you on about, it's not a crime that needs investigating. They're guilty as soon as they blow over the limit or fail to provide it's as simple as that. The courts job now is handing down a suitable sentence. All the evidence is 2 very drunk lads drove their respective cars into each other causing a serious RTC that quite frankly could of killed someone. They deserve to be punished by club, country and the courts for their actions. Quite clearly you've never seen or been part of an incident whereby innocent people have lost their lives or had them seriously affected by drink drivers. The bigger picture is that young impressionable children watch these players and see no punishment for a crime being committed.