ronnieronalde Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 13 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said: You could be right on that Almost halving the budget would still be dangerous. "Faslane (HMNB Clyde) is the second largest single-site employer in Scotland, after the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital in Glasgow." "Largest supplier of apprenticeships" I think there are close to 500,000 people in jobs reliant on defence projects. There will be other companies slightly affected due to some loss of trade. 2.097m work in 'Public admin & defence; social security' (UK total employment is 32.641m) The defence sector also exports just under £10b a year, bringing money into this country. BAE, Backcock, Rolls Royce are amongst the bigger ones 33% may be over egging it a bit (should have looked into the figures a bit before posting)- certainly close to 20%. I know there are some companies who could save hundreds of millions of pounds if they shared resources rather than allowing parts to be chucked in a landfill (mainly due to MOQs). The minerals and metals which are thrown away is ridiculous. Other companies will undoubtedly be doing the same. Good comeback that. I like these kind of to's and fro's. I did a quick bit of googling and came up with a list of about 12 firms operating in the UK - although corporate HQ may be elsewhere. Just reading that quick link and not looking at accounts or anything like that, those 10-12 firms make on average 10% pure profit on arms sales alone. Not taking into account aircraft, radars, equipment or components. Purely on sales of arms. Lockheed Martin made 3.6 billion profit on arms alone, arms forms just over 30% of their turnover. Go down the list and total up the profit on arms alone. I'm saying cut the entire budget by 2bn a year. I bet it would work out as less than 10% reduction in profit from weapons alone, every other area in effect remains at the same profit level as now. I understand those who are cautious and say we live in troubled times, the truth is the second anyone attacks the UK on a military scale, they'd be wiped out by us and our allies within minutes of them launching the attack. Then we'd be wiped out by their allies within 2 minutes of us attacking them. We're producing so many and such powerful weapons that the next war involving major countries and we're all in deep doo doo anyway. I don't think we need to spend 50 billion to defend ourselves from the only serious attack we could hope to survive and that is the extremists and terrorists. If it's a proper country like a China or a Russia I promise the last thing we'll be worrying about is unemployment rising in the production sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 4 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said: You think people like that are interested in calm rational debate, I wouldn't trust them as far as they could punch me. Some people will never be interested in a calm rational debate, but if you look at some of Tommy Robinson's rallies for example there are a lot of normal men, women and children there - they are there because he speaks up against something they all want to talk about but daren't. If subjects weren't censored to begin with a lot of those people wouldn't feel the need to be there. A rally of 1000 people would probably become a rally of 50 people, or barely a turnout - and as their issues were being openly discussed anyway it would take a lot of wind from their sails anyway. You'd walk past and ignore them in the street just the same as you would anyone else standing on their soapbox promoting their fringe ideas. We have to toughen up, accept that people have different ideas to us and debate them. Censoring issues, deplatforming people won't make problems go away, they will just find somewhere else to gather and radicalise, away from arguments that might turn some of them back. But yeah... idealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 1 minute ago, maxjam said: Some people will never be interested in a calm rational debate, but if you look at some of Tommy Robinson's rallies for example there are a lot of normal men, women and children there - they are there because he speaks up against something they all want to talk about but daren't. If subjects weren't censored to begin with a lot of those people wouldn't feel the need to be there. A rally of 1000 people would probably become a rally of 50 people, or barely a turnout - and as their issues were being openly discussed anyway it would take a lot of wind from their sails anyway. You'd walk past and ignore them in the street just the same as you would anyone else standing on their soapbox promoting their fringe ideas. We have to toughen up, accept that people have different ideas to us and debate them. Censoring issues, deplatforming people won't make problems go away, they will just find somewhere else to gather and radicalise, away from arguments that might turn some of them back. But yeah... idealistic. Can't argue with any of that and I like idealistic. I'm extremely worried at the undertone though and more worried that "normal" people who wouldn't usually give the time of the day to views like that are going to be hoodwinked into thinking he's less hard core. The fact they feel he is someone they can align with is genuinely scaring me. I may be missing the overall tone as I'm not watching the news but I've seen and heard a lot of momentum gathering behind Farage. Surely not? Nothing would surprise me though, look at Trump a figure of fun turned world leader. Boris Johnson a figure of fun who has proven time and time again that the image he portrays is his actual persona and wasn't put on as an act to get the bumbling posh boy with wavy hair vote. I'm very wary of bringing Nazi'ism into any discussion but we should never forget the stages Goebells managed the Nazi party through. They began as a tiny group of extremists who would go into public settings and provoke violence. They then created policy and manifesto around destroying an enemy the public could unite behind, changed Hitler's image into being a decisive, visionary leader of his people, almost god like. They're taking our jobs, they are greedy, they're destroying the purity of our nation, they have infiltrated and influenced our culture beyond recognition, we will be much better off without them in the world. You'll be much better off. Together we will make Germany great. I can't see anyone being duped or daft enough to fall for that again but for me any party or any leader who's core policies revolve around hate and discrimination in any form is a dangerous individual, with a good wind and a serious financial backer behind them they become a dangerous group and a real threat to society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 22 minutes ago, ronnieronalde said: Can't argue with any of that and I like idealistic. I'm extremely worried at the undertone though and more worried that "normal" people who wouldn't usually give the time of the day to views like that are going to be hoodwinked into thinking he's less hard core. The fact they feel he is someone they can align with is genuinely scaring me. Check this video out; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bobD4ymChrY listen to the people that support TR, they are working class people that have been forgotten by Labour and demonised by the media, they aren't going to vote for Farage as he's part of the establishment. TR gained notoriety because of his experiences of and opinions on Islam, he is now channelling his 'popularity' into the class war and a political campaign. I personally don't think TR is a nazi or a fascist and I don't think his followers are nazi's or fascists but I do think that they have been let down by successive governments - and there is nowhere else for them to turn. I'd agree its a worry and its a lot of the reason why the working classes voted for Brexit, it was a kick in the teeth to the establishment. Regardless of what happens with Brexit, this country is broken and until people TRs followers are reintegrated back into society and given purpose, people like TR will always rear their heads and gather a following. The political and media class should be ashamed of their actions and working hard to put things right but from what I can tell they are just working together to protect their way of life and largely oblivious to the rising resentment in the country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Carnero said: You forgot - "This is a once in a lifetime vote and we will implement the result". I'm guessing that was just another prediction! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 46 minutes ago, maxjam said: Dialogue and the willingness to listen to opinions that you don't agree with. Censorship, deplatforming, not allowing speakers at events is acting in a far more fascist manner that those you want to silence. I'm a firm believer in peoples ability to listen and rationalise arguments - good ones will gain traction, bad ones will get taken apart. Censoring people, no matter how well intentioned leds people to hide their feelings and take them underground wallowing them to fester unchallenged. Some fair points in there, but not really a solution (which is what I asked for). It's certainly no solution for any minority group that encounters systemic oppression, and what's more it doesn't even work for the angry white men who get to rant about "muslamics" and "feminazis" - because the second anyone does challenge them, they adopt the victim stance and claim that their free speech is under attack. The solution is to build a fairer society where 1) minorities aren't oppressed and 2) the white male majority aren't angry all the time. How do we achieve that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Just seen pictures of farage in Newcastle, jeez they must have some big pigeons up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 3 minutes ago, StivePesley said: The solution is to build a fairer society where 1) minorities aren't oppressed and 2) the white male majority aren't angry all the time. How do we achieve that? 1. Treat people like individuals 2. *Stop blaming them for everything *white working class males make up some of the most disadvantaged and left behind groups in society yet identity politics would have you believe they have more power than a middle class 'feminazi'. As for solutions, I can't offer any but I would argue that we're more likely to reach some if we open up debate rather than continually shut down one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 36 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Some fair points in there, but not really a solution (which is what I asked for). It's certainly no solution for any minority group that encounters systemic oppression, and what's more it doesn't even work for the angry white men who get to rant about "muslamics" and "feminazis" - because the second anyone does challenge them, they adopt the victim stance and claim that their free speech is under attack. The solution is to build a fairer society where 1) minorities aren't oppressed and 2) the white male majority aren't angry all the time. How do we achieve that? Its the whites have no rights or have the perfect life attitude that makes people vote for Farage you are in effect creating your own enemy with this sort of opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcfcfan1 Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Why do people think its acceptable to throw milkshake over people they dont like ?Sad state of affairs I dont like TR or Sargon of Akkhad but baffles me how many people are condoning this or just letting this slide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 15 minutes ago, dcfcfan1 said: Why do people think its acceptable to throw milkshake over people they dont like ?Sad state of affairs It's just adding lactose to their list of intolerances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 39 minutes ago, dcfcfan1 said: Why do people think its acceptable to throw milkshake over people they dont like ?Sad state of affairs I dont like TR or Sargon of Akkhad but baffles me how many people are condoning this or just letting this slide? Again its clear bias... If you crack an egg over Corbyn you get 28 days in prison https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47691606 If you call Anna Soubry a Nazi, you get taken to court (I forget what the outcome was) https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/protester-denies-calling-anna-soubry-2662007 If you throw a milkshake over Nigel Farage you get arrested https://news.sky.com/story/man-arrested-in-newcastle-after-throwing-milkshake-at-nigel-farage-11724800 but its still funny... https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nigel-farage-milkshake-brexit-a8922511.html Oh and if you throw a milkshake over Tommy Robinson or Carl Benjamin they get mocked by the media and MPs and no one gets their twitter account suspended for saying, 'I hope its acid next time' or 'I can't wait to get arrested for stabbing him'. You can't base laws on who they are committed against, its either worthy of 28 days inside or its not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 45 minutes ago, dcfcfan1 said: Why do people think its acceptable to throw milkshake over people they dont like ?Sad state of affairs People obviously find such behaviour acceptable when it's someone with a view they don't like. To be fair I'm sure the police will be investigating once they've finished their investigation into people shouting 'Nazi' at Anna Soubry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaltRam Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 Interesting to see Jess Phillips MP, (who I often disagree with but massively respect - the new Dennis Skinner?), standing up to an islamofascist bullyboy today over the LGBT education protests. It's a confrontation that's been in the post for a while but which is politically inconvenient. Muslims vote Labour in overwhelming numbers, but clearly the socially progressive policies of the Labour party are at odds with the teachings of islam on the rights of women, homosexuality and so on. Be interesting to see if a serious debate can emerge, or if we'll continue with the types of moral elasticity which lead to Tom Watson taking a stage in front of a gender segregated audience the other year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronnieronalde Posted May 20, 2019 Share Posted May 20, 2019 4 hours ago, maxjam said: Again its clear bias... If you crack an egg over Corbyn you get 28 days in prison https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47691606 If you call Anna Soubry a Nazi, you get taken to court (I forget what the outcome was) https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/local-news/protester-denies-calling-anna-soubry-2662007 If you throw a milkshake over Nigel Farage you get arrested https://news.sky.com/story/man-arrested-in-newcastle-after-throwing-milkshake-at-nigel-farage-11724800 but its still funny... https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/nigel-farage-milkshake-brexit-a8922511.html Oh and if you throw a milkshake over Tommy Robinson or Carl Benjamin they get mocked by the media and MPs and no one gets their twitter account suspended for saying, 'I hope its acid next time' or 'I can't wait to get arrested for stabbing him'. You can't base laws on who they are committed against, its either worthy of 28 days inside or its not You get low life cowards on all sides of the fence pal. Those two comments no doubt will be from anonymous troll bullies, thinking they're hiding behind the internet, untouchable. It's like the buffoons who go to football and get caught on camera dishing out racist abuse or hitting a player and then offering him out. How ducking dumb can you be? Hopefully both will get a knock from the police soon enough. Morons still have to be taught that their words have consequences. The fact twitter hasn't suspended their accounts is a disgrace if true. I've said it often, at least 80% of society is stupid, I'd say there is probably around 20% of society who aren't just stupid, they're an embarrassment and a danger to their fellow human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 8 hours ago, ronnieronalde said: You get low life cowards on all sides of the fence pal. Those two comments no doubt will be from anonymous troll bullies, thinking they're hiding behind the internet, untouchable. Yep - the milkshake incidents are an amusing form of civil disobedience and just another predictable outcome of the schism between politicians and people. It's not about injuring someone - it's about humiliation and the rejection of their ideas (in a country where politicians don't listen - what alternative is there?) I'm pretty sure that someone will throw a milkshake on Corbyn within the next 12 months BUT - those tweets are worthy of being reported and investigated. Maybe they are not being reported by Farage/TR supporters because they respect the right to be a moron too much ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Yep - the milkshake incidents are an amusing form of civil disobedience and just another predictable outcome of the schism between politicians and people. It's not about injuring someone - it's about humiliation and the rejection of their ideas (in a country where politicians don't listen - what alternative is there?) Hang on... we're always told that TR et al normalise the far right, in which case surely throwing milkshakes normalises violence? Who's to say its not a milkshake today, acid tomorrow, a knife the day after. Regardless, my interest lies in the hypocrisy of someone being jailed for egging Corbyn but the media, the police, Burger King and a politician glorifying the same act done to people they don't agree with. Its either all okay or none of its okay, you can't choose to enforce the law based on who the victim is. 12 minutes ago, StivePesley said: BUT - those tweets are worthy of being reported and investigated. Maybe they are not being reported by Farage/TR supporters because they respect the right to be a moron too much ? Although as you know full well, free speech has never included the right to incite violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, maxjam said: in which case surely throwing milkshakes normalises violence? It's a milkshake. Do you think water pistols normalise violence? 5 minutes ago, maxjam said: Who's to say its not a milkshake today, acid tomorrow, a knife the day after. Well that escalated quickly. You're purposely ignoring the fact that it's not a violent act. It's not even threatening. At no point is there a threat of violence. If anything a law that says throwing a harmless liquid onto a fascist should be treated as a violent act seems pretty stupid. I think it's all OK - and as I say, I'm sure someone will milkshake Corbyn soon enough (and for the record the guy who "egged" him actually punched him with an egg in his fist if you watch the footage so there was actual violence - you can't conflate the two things at all) The message is clear - if politicians want to stop getting covered in milk then they need to stop being self-serving useless gits Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddie Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, StivePesley said: It's a milkshake. Do you think water pistols normalise violence? Well that escalated quickly. You're purposely ignoring the fact that it's not a violent act. It's not even threatening. At no point is there a threat of violence. If anything a law that says throwing a harmless liquid onto a fascist should be treated as a violent act seems pretty stupid. I think it's all OK - and as I say, I'm sure someone will milkshake Corbyn soon enough (and for the record the guy who "egged" him actually punched him with an egg in his fist if you watch the footage so there was actual violence - you can't conflate the two things at all) The message is clear - if politicians want to stop getting covered in milk then they need to stop being self-serving useless gits Is this like when Farage boasted about winning the Brexit vote "Without a bullet being fired" just a week after the murder of Jo Cox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, StivePesley said: It's a milkshake. Do you think water pistols normalise violence? Well that escalated quickly. You're purposely ignoring the fact that it's not a violent act. It's not even threatening. At no point is there a threat of violence. If anything a law that says throwing a harmless liquid onto a fascist should be treated as a violent act seems pretty stupid. I think it's all OK - and as I say, I'm sure someone will milkshake Corbyn soon enough (and for the record the guy who "egged" him actually punched him with an egg in his fist if you watch the footage so there was actual violence - you can't conflate the two things at all) The message is clear - if politicians want to stop getting covered in milk then they need to stop being self-serving useless gits Well I think you are completely wrong. If you have to resort to any sort of violence, no matter how insignificant you deserve a month inside to reflect. It will be interesting to see whether its you or I that is in the minority here. https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/iain-dale/tony-blair-responds-to-nigel-farage-milkshake/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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