rynny Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 I have tidied the last few pages of this thread up. It is getting tiresome with some of the accusations thrown around at Mods, on the forum and in this thread in particular. I am getting fed up reading that we leave posts that shouldn't be left up because it was posted by a right/left wing (delete the opposite to which side you are perceived to be on) and we only get rid of left/right wing posts (delete which ever side you are perceived to be on). We are human, we can not read every single post on the forum, and occasionally we do miss posts for one reason or another, we ask that any post you believe to break forum rules get reported to help us, but please can we do it in a dignified manner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 4 hours ago, maxjam said: I can think of one top 1%er not to far away that has donated heavily to Derby Hospital The irony of being a Tory and donating to the local hospital so that they can have equipment that they should have anyway if people didn't vote Tory to have the NHS starved of funds The world is messed up 18 hours ago, Van Gritters said: I hate tax I think we should only work 4 days a week seeing at the taxman takes a days wages a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 12 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The irony of being a Tory and donating to the local hospital so that they can have equipment that they should have anyway if people didn't vote Tory to have the NHS starved of funds The world is messed up This is the guy that said after Richard Hammonds accident on Top Gear he wished he’d been decapitated . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, Curtains said: This is the guy that said after Richard Hammonds accident on Top Gear he wished he’d been decapitated . He did a piece about Top Gear yes - but I'm not sure you've actually watched it have you? I hope not anyway - because if you watched and you still didn't get the joke then well....what can I say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 38 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: The irony of being a Tory and donating to the local hospital so that they can have equipment that they should have anyway if people didn't vote Tory to have the NHS starved of funds You're a happy soul today. Maybe all the millionaires/billionaires should stop donating and leave for warmer climes. MM is a self made man, and I assume has paid his share of tax. He doesn't owe the community anything but has donated large sums of money anyway. I'd know I'd be off if I was him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 14 minutes ago, maxjam said: You're a happy soul today. Maybe all the millionaires/billionaires should stop donating and leave for warmer climes. MM is a self made man, and I assume has paid his share of tax. He doesn't owe the community anything but has donated large sums of money anyway. I'd know I'd be off if I was him. I must have been asleep when the Labour Party was in power and all was well in the NHS.. Everyone had very they needed, no waiting times, happy days indeed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said: 5 hours ago, maxjam said: I can think of one top 1%er not to far away that has donated heavily to Derby Hospital The irony of being a Tory and donating to the local hospital so that they can have equipment that they should have anyway if people didn't vote Tory to have the NHS starved of funds The world is messed up 19 hours ago, Van He does need people to write his software for him, so it's not entirely selfless. Can't have them dropping dead in the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjam Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said: He does need people to write his software for him, so it's not entirely selfless. Can't have them dropping dead in the street. Ah so what you're saying is that not only does he presumably pay a huge tax bill, plough millions into the community via football and donate generously to local projects he is also a creator of jobs that provide people with their livelihoods (who also pay tax) and in turn spend money in their local community. Sounds like the sort of person we need to chase out of the country tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 8 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said: He does need people to write his software for him, so it's not entirely selfless. Can't have them dropping dead in the street. For the record - I'm in no way criticising MM for his philanthropy. Just pointing out the irony of being a Tory and having to make philanthropic donations to counteract the negative impacts of Tory policies that he voted for... As an analogy - it'd be a bit like if I owned a football club, and kept making really terrible decisions that were hampering the progress of the club, and as a result I just had to keep chucking money at it to counteract my previous decisions.....oh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said: For the record - I'm in no way criticising MM for his philanthropy. Just pointing out the irony of being a Tory and having to make philanthropic donations to counteract the negative impacts of Tory policies that he voted for... As an analogy - it'd be a bit like if I owned a football club, and kept making really terrible decisions that were hampering the progress of the club, and as a result I just had to keep chucking money at it to counteract my previous decisions.....oh Are you suggesting that the NHS have only ever accepted donations to improve facilities under Conservatives governments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 3 hours ago, Angry Ram said: I must have been asleep when the Labour Party was in power and all was well in the NHS.. Everyone had very they needed, no waiting times, happy days indeed.. Dunno, from what i have been informed on here labour haven't been in power since the 70's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, Paul71 said: Dunno, from what i have been informed on here labour haven't been in power since the 70's Yeah the others weren’t real were they. My bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curtains Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Angry Ram said: Yeah the others weren’t real were they. My bad. You mean New Labour the not quite so completely left wing Labour as now lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 On 27/11/2019 at 19:29, GboroRam said: Personally I think that Corbyn is not a habitual liar, which is unusual for politicians, and because of that I'm inclined to think he may be telling the truth. Now we need to see the full details. The documents are apparently available on line. Lord knows where but I am sure an appropriate news outlet will tell you. i suspect there is nothing to see and most of will be US health care companies wanting a share of the UK private healthcare market. The Government( any government) is never going to agree to anything that will raise the price of drugs .. the American big Pharma outfits will be trying (and probably failing) to get longer patents before drugs go generic but basically the NHS is the biggest drug purchaser in Europe, at the most competitive of prices and is unlikely to get suckered. I think it’s a bit of electioneering but if you dislike Boris to the extent that Labour do then it’s bound to happen just as the Daily Mail will have an immigration story or a Russian story full of shock horror revaltions which add up to little of substance. All great stuff for partisan mobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 Just for balance, without the Labour Party we wouldn’t have a NHS to argue about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norman Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 29 minutes ago, uttoxram75 said: Just for balance, without the Labour Party we wouldn’t have a NHS to argue about. Just for balance, didn't all 3 main parties endorse the Beveridge report? And didn't all 3 have the report in their manifestos? Didn't all 3 pledge a NHS in their manifestos? And didn't Labour have the weakest manifesto on health care out of the 3? We would have had the NHS anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Norman said: Just for balance, didn't all 3 main parties endorse the Beveridge report? And didn't all 3 have the report in their manifestos? Errrr, no. The Tory manifesto of 1945, which I actually took time to read, does not endorse free healthcare at all. Indeed the opening clause of the health policy states, and I quote, 'The health services of the country will be made available to all citizens. Everyone will contribute to the cost, and no one will be denied the attention, the treatment or the appliances he requires because he cannot afford them.' The open and rather obvious contradiction being the conditions that no one will be denied care but that everyone will contribute. Hardly the same thing as free healthcare FOR ALL irrespective of whether one is able to 'contribute' or not. The manifesto also goes on to state that far from falling under state control, as per the NHS implemented by the Labour government, that, I quote, the 'whole service must be so designed that in each area its growth is helped and guided by the influence of a university' which neatly avoids any costs incurred through state oversight as well as shifting the blame for any mis-management from the government itself, even going so far as to state that 'The success of the service will depend on the skill and initiative of doctors, dentists, nurses and other professional people, and in its designing and operation there will be full scope for all the guidance they can give'. In other words, medical professionals will have to double up as managers and planners because actually tending to the sick is not enough of a burden. One might also ask the question, what experience did the universities of the time have in the running of hospitals, were one of a mind to do so! It then goes on to say that the 'voluntary hospitals which have led the way in the development of hospital technique will remain free' but offers no funding for said points of care. In other words, local fundraisers and philanthropists would continue to pick up the tab NOT THE TAXPAYER and certainly not the Exchequer. Very nice of the Tories to allow the only free healthcare to remain free though, despite the fact that they weren't paying for it in the first place! Likewise, it encourages the provision of nurseries, again with no commitment to government funding. Indeed the only promise of wholly free healthcare made in their manifesto was for maternity services which is the only provision the manifesto specifically confirms would be financed through national insurance contributions. Why is this and why when the Tory health secretary of the time, Henry Willink, endorsed Beveridge's report, did he incur the outrage of his fellow Tories (yes, they absolutely hated the idea)? Quite simply because they knew that the only way the state could fund a wholly free healthcare service was increased taxation for both individuals and businesses, with higher earners bearing the brunt. One might be forgiven for supposing that perhaps higher earners and business formed the core of their support but the scenario does seem remarkably familiar, does it not? Their offering, if you care to see it, addresses the issue of the middle classes being denied care, due to being forced to pay full cost, reduces the cost for the wealthiest members of society, yet makes no provision for the poorest members of society at all. It is in effect, health insurance in all but name and a far cry for a free NHS for all. 3 hours ago, Norman said: And didn't Labour have the weakest manifesto on health care out of the 3? Did they? By what metric? It makes you wonder why they were voted in then really. Perhaps folk didn't know what they were voting for! Interestingly, they actually promised and delivered the NHS so perhaps that's a tad more relevant? Presumably your research confirmed that the sector most likely to struggle to receive treatment was not the poor, who could often access services through the voluntary hospital network, but rather the middle classes who either had to pay the full cost of treatment, or, if that cost was beyond them, go without. The NHS implemented under the Atlee's government eradicated this inequality by ensuring that EVERYONE benefited, even the wealthiest members of society. Hark at those crazy Trots with their nonsensical, egalitarian principles, huh! 3 hours ago, Norman said: We would have had the NHS anyway. Errr, no. Under a Liberal government, perhaps (Beveridge was a liberal), under labour, well, we have our proof. Under the Tories, sorry, not a chance in hell. Thank you all the same for your rather revisionist rewriting of history. Feel free to cite any clauses from the Tory manifesto (or anywhere else for that matter) that contradict the above. In the spirit of helpfulness and open debate, the link to the 1945 Tory manifesto is provided below. http://www.conservativemanifesto.com/1945/1945-conservative-manifesto.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 13 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Are you suggesting that the NHS have only ever accepted donations to improve facilities under Conservatives governments? @SchtivePesley I will assume the laughing emoji means that you have no answer then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSD Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 I would like to see folks explaining positives about their political views rather than constantly bash another person's political opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted December 2, 2019 Share Posted December 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, SouthStandDan said: I would like to see folks explaining positives about their political views rather than constantly bash another person's political opinion. Had a long political debate with a friend over the weekend. He describes me as a staunch Conservative so was extremely surprised to hear many Labour policies I like the sound of. It's not always about having the best policies though, they also need to be realistic and deliverable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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