sage Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Couple of points... The fishing industry is split on leaving, some boats will enjoy more of a monopoly on catches whereas other boats will have their export markets carry tariffs. Secondly VAT can be reduced in the EU, just not below 5%. As others have said Tories want to reduce income tax and increase VAT to protect their wealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Grumpy Git said: 1. Not going to happen as our Tory paymasters love cheap labour in their businesses. 2. Come back to me in a couple of years and let me know whats changed to our benefit. 3. Strange one as our farmers get massive EU subsidies, yet I saw lots of "out" posters in their fields (maybe our farmers are jealous of their French counterparts)? 4. Tories love VAT as it means a bloke earning £20K pays the same for his stuff as a bloke earning £200K, (but the bloke on £200K pays much lower overall tax as a proportion of his income - who'd a thunk it), so not going to happen. VAT was 8% when I started work in 1978, but Maggie Thatcher almost doubled it to 15% when she became PM in 1979 (she reduced income tax, so VAT had to go up - which hurts the working man more). You didnt ask for opinion on whether these things would happen or not, you asked for things that we could change to improve the lives of people earning between £15k and £50k. I think I've given you 4 plausible suggestions. Do you think they are plausible or not? The thing is, if you think they are but the Conservatives dont enact them, you can vote them out in a General Election. Stay in the EU and you will have no way of carrying them out. Just my take on things and happy to be corrected if any of my suggestions are factually incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, sage said: Couple of points... The fishing industry is split on leaving, some boats will enjoy more of a monopoly on catches whereas other boats will have their export markets carry tariffs. Secondly VAT can be reduced in the EU, just not below 5%. As others have said Tories want to reduce income tax and increase VAT to protect their wealth. The fishing question is a strange one. The main problem affecting the fish industry is overfishing. I don't think this will address the overfishing. I'm not saying the EU has any answers either, but without reducing demand for fish, we'll not have a fishing industry for long anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 5 minutes ago, sage said: Couple of points... The fishing industry is split on leaving, some boats will enjoy more of a monopoly on catches whereas other boats will have their export markets carry tariffs. Secondly VAT can be reduced in the EU, just not below 5%. As others have said Tories want to reduce income tax and increase VAT to protect their wealth. In June 2016 a poll suggested 92% of the fishing industry voted to leave the EU. Not sure how reliable the poll was but it certainly suggests not as split as you are saying. Think you're wrong on the VAT rate but I'm no EU VAT expert. Can you point me to the sections in their manifesto where they have said they are cutting income tax and increasing VAT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grumpy Git Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Remember we are all still paying an extra 2.5% VAT on everything for the Conservative "poll tax" fiasco from 30 years ago, (they bumped it up from 15% to 17.5%). I wonder how much that has cost us all in the intervening (and ongoing) years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Yep, I'm proud of alot of my own personal achievements too...all done while living in England. Is it not possible to be proud of both? Why would you though? What does the location of your personal achievement have to do with anything? I've never understood why anyone feels pride in their nationhood. For large parts of my life I've felt almost embarassed to tell people that I'm English when I'm abroad. I genuinley think that anyone who bangs on about how proud they are of their nationhood must have terrible insecurities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Why would you though? What does the location of your personal achievement have to do with anything? I've never understood why anyone feels pride in their nationhood. For large parts of my life I've felt almost embarassed to tell people that I'm English when I'm abroad. I genuinley think that anyone who bangs on about how proud they are of their nationhood must have terrible insecurities England, and indeed Britain, has offered so much to the progress of mankind, I just think we should be proud of our ancestory. You kind of contradict yourself though, if you dont think there is any reason to be proud of where you are from then on the flip side surely there is no reason to be embarrassed of where you come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ram for All Seasons Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: 1 - Stop freedom of movement, thereby halting influx of cheap labour 2 - Regain our fishing waters 3 - No longer have to abide by the Common Agricultural Policy 4 - Reduce or scrap VAT on goods 1. No need to import cheap labour any more because native Britons will become the new cheap labour. 2. All the cod we eat in our chip shops migrated to colder waters off Iceland and Norway a long time ago, so we won't get fat on fish caught in British waters. 3. The EU imposes a 40% tariff on imported lamb, so the market will disappear overnight and all our hill farmers will have to slaughter their herds. 4. VAT is the classic non-progressive tax, and Rees-Mogg pays exactly the same rate as his butler. That's why the Tories love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 10 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: England, and indeed Britain, has offered so much to the progress of mankind, I just think we should be proud of our ancestory. You kind of contradict yourself though, if you dont think there is any reason to be proud of where you are from then on the flip side surely there is no reason to be embarrassed of where you come from? Nail on head. If this meme of Brexiteers being overly proud nationalists is true, then you can certainly suggest the reverse is the same of remainers. Overwhelmingly embarrassed, or disliking of their own country and fellow Brits. All despite the UKs accomplishments and many things the world has benefitted from this nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 2 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said: Nail on head. If this meme of Brexiteers being overly proud nationalists if true, then you can certainly suggest the reverse is the same of remainers. Overwhelmingly embarrassed, or hating their own country, despite Britains accomplishments and benefits that it has bought the world. You can be incredibly disappointed with what our country has become politically yet still be proud of our history. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 25 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: For large parts of my life I've felt almost embarrassed to tell people that I'm English when I'm abroad. You haven't been drinking enough while on holiday. When I start singing they usually figure it out for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Just now, JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta said: You can be incredibly disappointed with what our country has become politically yet still be proud of our history. The two things are not mutually exclusive. Dont think that necessarily is often the case. I've regularly seen left wing voices suggest we should be paying reparations and apologising for our supposed awful history. Often mutually thrown in with dissatisfaction of the Brexit vote, and the fact this country generally votes for right of centre parties in GEs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 13 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: England, and indeed Britain, has offered so much to the progress of mankind, I just think we should be proud of our ancestory. You should be proud of being British. I most certainly am. We have a lot to be proud of. I do have to say I despise the Billy Bullshot stilton smeared jingoistic view held by some overly nostalgic bell *nds, especially about WW2. Read deep and widely on that subject, the truth will make you prouder still. ? (lion emoji in lieu of Union Flag) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfie Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 2 hours ago, SchtivePesley said: And will almost certainly be the first stage of the breakup of the United Kingdom IMO it's probably accelerated the process but that nationalism has been on the rise in Scotland & Wales in recent years and was inevitable eventually anyway. So be it. Who are we (English) to tell the Scots & Welsh who they should be governed by. It's democracy isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 minute ago, WhiteHorseRam said: You should be proud of being British. I most certainly am. We have a lot to be proud of. I do have to say I despise the Billy Bullshot stilton smeared jingoistic view held by some overly nostalgic bell *nds, especially about WW2. Read deep and widely on that subject, the truth will make you prouder still. ? (lion emoji in lieu of Union Flag) I get your point but should we not be proud of our accomplishments in WW2 though? As our greatest Prime Minister said, it was our finest hour.. It shouldn't be interjected at inappropriate moments as per the Leave.EU tweet the other day. But I see no reason to feel anything but pride about what the likes of my Grandfather had to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Van Wolfie said: IMO it's probably accelerated the process but that nationalism has been on the rise in Scotland & Wales in recent years and was inevitable eventually anyway. So be it. Who are we (English) to tell the Scots & Welsh who they should be governed by. It's democracy isn't it? They'll likely get it eventually anyway. The demographics in Scotland are changing so that nationalism and calls for independence will only grow louder. I expect when they have another referendum in 10-15 years or so they'll vote out. Shouldn't be done on a whim though, 'once in a generation' vote. And if thats what they want they should have it. At least we'll get rid of those pointless SNP MPs out of Westminster.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Red_Dawn said: I get your point but should we not be proud of our accomplishments in WW2 though? As our greatest Prime Minister said, it was our finest hour.. It shouldn't be interjected at inappropriate moments as per the Leave.EU tweet the other day. But I see no reason to feel anything but pride about what the likes of my Grandfather had to do. Absolutely. But in recent years with all the commemorations there has sprung up a lot of popular cobblers, while some uncomfortable truths have been air-brushed out. Often looking into uncomfortable truths you find amazing heroism alongside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said: I get your point but should we not be proud of our accomplishments in WW2 though? As our greatest Prime Minister said, it was our finest hour.. It shouldn't be interjected at inappropriate moments as per the Leave.EU tweet the other day. But I see no reason to feel anything but pride about what the likes of my Grandfather had to do. Blimey, not like you to be still banging on about something that was won decades ago. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 23 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: You kind of contradict yourself though, if you dont think there is any reason to be proud of where you are from then on the flip side surely there is no reason to be embarrassed of where you come from? That is a fair point – I wish I could feel neither pride or embarrassment in my country. No country or place deserves unconditional pride – it’s nonsensical. As Derby fans I don’t think any of us would claim to be proud of Derby because Philpott killed his kids, or Tom Lawrence had a drunken car crash, yet as a country some seem to think we should be proud to be British whatever. For example one poster above blithely describes our country’s part in the slave trade as “supposedly awful”. I mean come on! I can be proud of individuals, but the notion of being proud of my country is just way to abstract Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_Dawn Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 9 minutes ago, Paul71 said: Blimey, not like you to be still banging on about something that was won decades ago. ? We beat you a matter of weeks, not years ago mate ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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