The Politics Thread 2019

[King Kevin]

10 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

I loved it and was thrilled to bits when Derby beat Spurs 8-2 at the old Baseball Ground, which was around 5 minutes walk from my front door at the time, but I'm glad I didn't have to demonstrate my love of my football club by joining the DLF and kicking people's heads in.

Salvini, Trump, Orban, Bolsonaro etc. would gladly kick people's heads in to show their love of their country.

You went way off topic there, were did Dawny mention anything about backing pride with violence .That's your link not his.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, McRamFan said:

You would think an accountant would know that...

An 'alleged' accountant you mean?

I did know all of what the poster mentioned.

The question was 'what laws or rules could we change the day after Brexit' or something along them lines, not 'will the Conservatives lower VAT and, if not, why not'?

Unlike some posters I answer the questions posed rather than post pointless links.

I'd have thought someone as clever as you would have spotted this.

[G STAR RAM]

54 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

What are your personal accomplishments and what benefits have you yourself brought the world?

Those are the things that you should be proud about, rather than riding on other people's coat tails and taking credit for other people's achievements by proxy.

Are you not proud of your parents/grandparents then?

I am, and I have no shame in admitting it.

[Stive Pesley]

16 minutes ago, maxjam said:

So, you could live in a ****hole but so long as you're nice to people thats okay?  You take no pride in the street you live in or park you walk through, if its a disgusting mess whatever I said hello to someone so that makes it alright?

I take a bit of pride in where I'm from and where I live, I pick litter up outside my house and (within reason) do similar around the park when I'm walking my dog.  Taking a bit of pride in where I'm from benefits everyone.

No not "everyone" - it doesn't benefit a pensioner in Australia if you pick up litter in Derby.

My point is that you're doing it for yourself and for other people around you. You're actually proving my point - be nice to all the people around you and everything else flows from there. The place where you live becomes better as a result and everyone is happier. Unless you're picking up the litter purely for yourself and actively despise everyone else around you. But I don't think that's the case

 

[Stive Pesley]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Are you not proud of your parents/grandparents then?

I am, and I have no shame in admitting it.

Because they couldn't have done it without you.....oh

 

[Grumpy Git]

56 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Nope – absolutely nothing to do with where we’re from.

If we all took a bit more pride in our own actions towards others - that’s all it needs. Everything else just flows naturally from that

Never a truer quote than "treat others as you would wish to be treated yourself".

I once remember being with an associate (who is totally loaded, proper big-style millionaire). We both walked into his bank in motorbike leathers and were taking off our crash-hats as we went in when one of the clerks came over and started rollocking us. When he realised who the other bloke was, he nearly passed-out and was like a simmering Baldrick attempting to appologise for being a total bell-end.

Always makes me laugh when I think about it.

[G STAR RAM]

18 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Because they couldn't have done it without you.....oh

 

Makes absolutely no sense.

 

[GboroRam]

22 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Are you not proud of your parents/grandparents then?

I am, and I have no shame in admitting it.

Didn't know you knew his parents/grandparents.

[GboroRam]

44 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

Glad you enjoyed that game, but what an extremely odd analogy to make. 

As the poster above stated, showing pride in something doesn't mean you need to abuse others to demonstrate it. 

(Although if we win in November I might retract this statement ?)

I'm fine with pride. It's when it forms into superiority I have problems. We are the nationality we are by chance alone. Why feel superior to people based on the randomness of where you were born/who your parents are?

[A Ram for All Seasons]

38 minutes ago, King Kevin said:

You went way off topic there, were did Dawny mention anything about backing pride with violence .That's your link not his.

I did not accuse Red Dawn or anybody else of advocating violence.

I was simply suggesting with the aid of a football analogy that things tend to get out of hand if people are so consumed by national pride that they start to do silly things, like invading Poland for instance.

[Grumpy Git]

I know I feel totally ashamed of the government which supposedly represents my interests in the UK currently.

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, Highgate said:

We have the Labour party in Ireland too, the only party that has remained from pre-independence times.  They still have the same symbol as your Labour party, and probably surely similar policies, although they are wholly independent now. In 25 years of voting in elections here, I've never voted for a Labour Party candidate once.  Not in General Elections, not in European Elections, not in Local Elections.  Not once. 

I've voted for the Green Party and I've voted for Independents.  I can emphatically reject that I have a Labour Party bias.

Go back up and read up the original post of if you must.  It wasn't suggested that I had a left of centre bias.  I was accused of having a Labour bias.  If he intended to say left of centre bias but just misspoke (as you seem to suggest) then it was a pretty redundant point anyway, given that his bias from the other side is at least as pronounced as mine.

Incidentally, the revelation that you have US Republican bias is the least surprising revelation of this whole thread ?

 

Yeah that's all well and good but you do have red socks.. So Labour bias is applicable ?

 

[A Ram for All Seasons]

32 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Are you not proud of your parents/grandparents then?

I am, and I have no shame in admitting it.

I am impressed by the way my grandparents managed to get through two world wars and my parents managed to get through one.

I wouldn't use them as an excuse for starting another, or suggest that their experiences are somehow superior to other people's who went through the same things in different countries.

[maxjam]

24 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

No not "everyone" - it doesn't benefit a pensioner in Australia if you pick up litter in Derby.

Although if a person/enough people living in Australia did the same it to would become a nicer place to live. 

If you and everyone takes a bit of pride in your local area becomes your local area better place to live.  If enough people do that in neighbouring areas the country becomes a nicely place to live. 

 

26 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

My point is that you're doing it for yourself and for other people around you. You're actually proving my point - be nice to all the people around you and everything else flows from there. The place where you live becomes better as a result and everyone is happier. Unless you're picking up the litter purely for yourself and actively despise everyone else around you. But I don't think that's the case

And surely you are proving mine?  Yes I'm doing it for me and the people around me, if others do the same my local area becomes a nicer place to live, if neighbouring areas do similar the country becomes a nicer place to live. 

You can expand that worldwide if you wish, but the world is divided into continents, regions and countries for many reasons - geographical, political, economical, religion, sport etc you can be as nice to your neighbour as you want but ultimately we are defined by borders and if you don't take care of and pride in your own backyard why would you look beyond its borders?

[sage]

3 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

In June 2016 a poll suggested 92% of the fishing industry voted to leave the EU. Not sure how reliable the poll was but it certainly suggests not as split as you are saying.

Think you're wrong on the VAT rate but I'm no EU VAT expert.

Can you point me to the sections in their manifesto where they have said they are cutting income tax and increasing VAT?

As the process has developed more fisherman have realised Brexit isn't a Panacea. Leavers may still be in the majority but it's not as one sided.

Glad you think I am wrong about EU Vat whilst admitting you know little about it. That's the Leave argument in a nutshell.

Since 1979 tory governments have raised VAT and cut income tax. There figures are available if you wish to research this.

Right wing Tories who are now more to fore have long spoken of a 20/20 vision with 20% income tax and 20% Vat. Again an easily researched concept.

 

 

[G STAR RAM]

17 minutes ago, sage said:

As the process has developed more fisherman have realised Brexit isn't a Panacea. Leavers may still be in the majority but it's not as one sided.

Had a brief scan of stories via Google and cant really find any stats to back up what you say, but obviously accept at face value that you obviously have.

Glad you think I am wrong about EU Vat whilst admitting you know little about it. That's the Leave argument in a nutshell.

Did a bit more research and from what I can see the lowest standard rate allowed is 15% not the 5% you stated, however, I will refrain from being smug in case it is an old article that I was reading. Once again, given your last line there, I will have to assume you are an EU VAT expert and accept what you are saying at face value.

Since 1979 tory governments have raised VAT and cut income tax. There figures are available if you wish to research this.

Right wing Tories who are now more to fore have long spoken of a 20/20 vision with 20% income tax and 20% Vat. Again an easily researched concept.

I couldn't care less what previous governments have done. If you are stating that the Conservative government will reduce income tax and increase VAT then I assume there is evidence for this or it is in their manifesto, or is that just the Labour argument in a nutshell?

 

[Stive Pesley]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

And surely you are proving mine? 

Yes I think we're violently agreeing (for once) ?

We're both saying that pride in a physical place ultimately comes from the people who inhabit that place taking individual responsibility for their actions to improve that place

The thing I'm not getting behind is the idea of national pride based on nothing but where you plopped out a fanny, and acting like that automatically gives you some sort of special power. I'm pretty sure you're not down with that either

[GboroRam]

7 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Did a bit more research and from what I can see the lowest standard rate allowed is 15% not the 5% you stated, however, I will refrain from being smug in case it is an old article that I was reading. Once again, given your last line there, I will have to assume you are an EU VAT expert and accept what you are saying at face value.

The EU sets the broad VAT rules through European VAT Directives, and has set the minimum standard VAT rate at 15%.  The 28 member states are otherwise free to set their standard VAT rates.  The EU also permits a maximum of two reduced rates, the lowest of which must be 5% or above. Some countries have variations on this, including a third, reduced VAT rate, which they had in place prior to their accession to the EU.

Member states have now agreed that they will be free to set the reduced rates on most goods and services, including: e-books; domestic fuel; clothing; and female hygiene products.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-rates/european-vat-rates.html

So - 5% seems to be the lowest rate that most goods can be set at. And female hygiene is permitted, yet we're still charging full VAT in this country - definitely isn't the EUs fault that it isn't 5%.

[maxjam]

Just now, SchtivePesley said:

Yes I think we're violently agreeing (for once) ?

We're both saying that pride in a physical place ultimately comes from the people who inhabit that place taking individual responsibility for their actions to improve that place

The thing I'm not getting behind is the idea of national pride based on nothing but where you plopped out a fanny, and acting like that automatically gives you some sort of special power. I'm pretty sure you're not down with that either

We've actually agreed on a few things in the past - approached the answer from completely different angles but agreed non-the-less!

I'm not saying national pride gives me special powers or makes me any better than anyone else, but I do believe that every citizen from every country should take pride in their nation of birth and work to make it a better place.  Competition, whether its a game of football against local rivials or economically/technologically/ideologically etc against another country, if focussed in the correct manner, can be a good thing and a driving force for progress. 

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

The EU sets the broad VAT rules through European VAT Directives, and has set the minimum standard VAT rate at 15%.  The 28 member states are otherwise free to set their standard VAT rates.  The EU also permits a maximum of two reduced rates, the lowest of which must be 5% or above. Some countries have variations on this, including a third, reduced VAT rate, which they had in place prior to their accession to the EU.

Member states have now agreed that they will be free to set the reduced rates on most goods and services, including: e-books; domestic fuel; clothing; and female hygiene products.

https://www.avalara.com/vatlive/en/vat-rates/european-vat-rates.html

So - 5% seems to be the lowest rate that most goods can be set at. And female hygiene is permitted, yet we're still charging full VAT in this country - definitely isn't the EUs fault that it isn't 5%.

That's for reduced rate goods, what is the lowest rate for standard rated goods?