The Politics Thread 2019

[Sith Happens]

1 minute ago, Red_Dawn said:

We beat you a matter of weeks, not years ago mate ? 

Fair enough,  it is easier to recall rare events in life.

[McRamFan]

1 hour ago, Grumpy Git said:

4. Tories love VAT as it means a bloke earning £20K pays the same for his stuff as a bloke earning £200K, (but the bloke on £200K pays much lower overall tax as a proportion of his income - who'd a thunk it), so not going to happen. VAT was 8% when I started work in 1978, but Maggie Thatcher almost doubled it to 15% when she became PM in 1979 (she reduced income tax, so VAT had to go up - which hurts the working man more).

You would think an accountant would know that...

[WhiteHorseRam]

1 minute ago, SchtivePesley said:

That is a fair point – I wish I could feel neither pride or embarrassment in my country.

No country or place deserves unconditional pride – it’s nonsensical.

As Derby fans I don’t think any of us would claim to be proud of Derby because Philpott killed his kids, or Tom Lawrence had a drunken car crash, yet as a country some seem to think we should be proud to be British whatever.

For example one poster above blithely describes our country’s part in the slave trade as “supposedly awful”. I mean come on!

I can be proud of individuals, but the notion of being proud of my country is just way to abstract

I don't have unconditional pride in my country. Proud though, I think we are in the plus column of deeds historically.

But do have unconditional love for my country and the people in it (even the w***ers, and at a push, even the Gumps)

Call me old fashioned if you like.

[Red_Dawn]

10 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

That is a fair point – I wish I could feel neither pride or embarrassment in my country.

No country or place deserves unconditional pride – it’s nonsensical.

As Derby fans I don’t think any of us would claim to be proud of Derby because Philpott killed his kids, or Tom Lawrence had a drunken car crash, yet as a country some seem to think we should be proud to be British whatever.

For example one poster above blithely describes our country’s part in the slave trade as “supposedly awful”. I mean come on!

I can be proud of individuals, but the notion of being proud of my country is just way to abstract

If you're going to criticise things I've said, at least have the courage to quote me directly.

And you have the audacity to bring up the slave trade, something this country lead the charge in ending hundreds of years ago - yet have absolutely nothing to say when I confronted you on your party's institutional racism?  The same racism that you put in "quotations marks" and then reacted with a laughing emojjis when evidence is presented. 

You're not just an enabler for these bigots, also a vacuous hypocrite. 

[Red_Dawn]

4 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Fair enough,  it is easier to recall rare events in life.

Well there was the game before that too.. 

 

[Spanish]

2 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

Well there was the game before that too.. 

 

when do you stitch another star on your shirt?

[Sith Happens]

3 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

Well there was the game before that too.. 

 

Blimey.  something else to blame brexit for 

[Sith Happens]

1 minute ago, Spanish said:

when do you stitch another star on your shirt?

They aren't stars, they look like it from a distance but they are actually chocolate starfish.

[Red_Dawn]

2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

when do you stitch another star on your shirt?

At three in a row. Roll on November 9th

[A Ram for All Seasons]

24 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

Nail on head. 

If this meme of Brexiteers being overly proud nationalists if true, then you can certainly suggest the reverse is the same of remainers.

Overwhelmingly embarrassed, or hating their own country, despite Britains accomplishments and benefits that it has bought the world. 

What are your personal accomplishments and what benefits have you yourself brought the world?

Those are the things that you should be proud about, rather than riding on other people's coat tails and taking credit for other people's achievements by proxy.

And why should I hate my own country? When the German president Gustav Heinemann was asked in 1969 by a journalist whether he loved his country, he said "No, I love my wife". That's the most sensible thing that has ever been said about national pride.

[maxjam]

13 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

That is a fair point – I wish I could feel neither pride or embarrassment in my country.

No country or place deserves unconditional pride – it’s nonsensical.

As Derby fans I don’t think any of us would claim to be proud of Derby because Philpott killed his kids, or Tom Lawrence had a drunken car crash, yet as a country some seem to think we should be proud to be British whatever.

For example one poster above blithely describes our country’s part in the slave trade as “supposedly awful”. I mean come on!

I can be proud of individuals, but the notion of being proud of my country is just way to abstract

Do you take pride in your house?  Your street?  Your village/town? 

Why do you support Derby?  For a lot of people its because it was the local team. 

Surely being proud of your country is an extension of this?

If we all did our bit and took a bit more pride in where we're from, the world would be a better place.  

[King Kevin]

22 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

They'll likely get it eventually anyway. 

The demographics in Scotland are changing so that nationalism and calls for independence will only grow louder. 

I expect when they have another referendum in 10-15 years or so they'll vote out. Shouldn't be done on a whim though, 'once in a generation' vote. 

And if thats what they want they should have it. At least we'll get rid of those pointless SNP MPs out of Westminster.. 

Although I would for some strange reason like the Union to stay together [I particularly like the Union Flag] ,if the English had a vote on ditching the Welsh and Scots you might be surprised at the result .

Pisses me off that they are subsidised and still winge all the time ,and don't get me started on them voting on English issues whilst they have their own parliaments 

[Highgate]

4 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

Silly point to make, the two are not related.. I have a Republican bias in the USA but have never voted..

I don’t have to vote to have a preference.. It is clear from your posts that you are left of centre, so it wa a valid point in the original post.

We have the Labour party in Ireland too, the only party that has remained from pre-independence times.  They still have the same symbol as your Labour party, and probably surely similar policies, although they are wholly independent now. In 25 years of voting in elections here, I've never voted for a Labour Party candidate once.  Not in General Elections, not in European Elections, not in Local Elections.  Not once. 

I've voted for the Green Party and I've voted for Independents.  I can emphatically reject that I have a Labour Party bias.

Go back up and read up the original post of if you must.  It wasn't suggested that I had a left of centre bias.  I was accused of having a Labour bias.  If he intended to say left of centre bias but just misspoke (as you seem to suggest) then it was a pretty redundant point anyway, given that his bias from the other side is at least as pronounced as mine.

Incidentally, the revelation that you have US Republican bias is the least surprising revelation of this whole thread ?

 

[Red_Dawn]

8 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

What are your personal accomplishments and what benefits have you yourself brought the world?

Those are the things that you should be proud about, rather than riding on other people's coat tails and taking credit for other people's achievements by proxy.

And why should I hate my own country? When the German president Gustav Heinemann was asked in 1969 by a journalist whether he loved his country, he said "No, I love my wife". That's the most sensible thing that has ever been said about national pride.

When your club play well, win well. Do you feel proud of them?

If they got promoted would you feel joy at their accomplishment, pride? But why, you didn't have anything directly to do with it?

I dont think its as simple as only being proud of your own accomplishments. 

Edit: I see maxjam just made exactly the same point ?

[Stive Pesley]

3 minutes ago, maxjam said:

If we all did our bit and took a bit more pride in where we're from, the world would be a better place.  

Nope – absolutely nothing to do with where we’re from.

If we all took a bit more pride in our own actions towards others - that’s all it needs. Everything else just flows naturally from that

[Sith Happens]

Just now, SchtivePesley said:

Nope – absolutely nothing to do with where we’re from.

If we all took a bit more pride in our own actions towards others - that’s all it needs. Everything else just flows naturally from that

Yep totally, we earn respect of others it should never be assumed because you are from somewhere.

Tend to think when you holiday abroad most British are perfectly nice and respectable people,  sadly there is a minority which stand out who make the British look bad. 

It is mad how many think talking slower and louder in English to other nationalities is the way to do it, only to become exasperated and think the other person is thick if they don't understand.

Its so entertaining in a sad way scrolling through trip advisor reviews and reading about the lack of 'real' bacon or sausage or nescafe, or complaints staff didn't speak very good English.

 

 

 

 

 

[Highgate]

4 hours ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

I wish people would start to be proud of the things that they are entitled to be proud about, such as their own personal achievements and the good things they have done in the world to help all of us.

I find it very difficult to be proud about the place where I just happened to pop out of my mother's fanny, but I don't "hate England" either.

It would be much better for all of us if people would be proud about the right things.

You are entirely right and your point reminds me George Carlin

 

 

However, often when people say..I'm proud to be...whatever, they are not usually claiming that it's better than anywhere else or that deserve any special credit. Just simply that they have a love for their own country, it is their home, and they are concerned about it welfare.   And that's totally fine with me.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

18 minutes ago, Red_Dawn said:

When your club play well, win well. Do you feel proud of them?

If they got promoted would you feel joy at their accomplishment, pride? But why, you didn't have anything directly to do with it?

I dont think its as simple as only being proud of your own accomplishments. 

I loved it and was thrilled to bits when Derby beat Spurs 8-2 at the old Baseball Ground, which was around 5 minutes walk from my front door at the time, but I'm glad I didn't have to demonstrate my love of my football club by joining the DLF and kicking people's heads in.

Salvini, Trump, Orban, Bolsonaro etc. would gladly kick people's heads in to show their love of their country.

[Red_Dawn]

8 minutes ago, A Ram for All Seasons said:

I loved it and was thrilled to bits when Derby beat Spurs 8-2 at the old Baseball Ground, which was around 5 minutes walk from my front door at the time, but I'm glad I didn't have to demonstrate my love of my football club by joining the DLF and kicking people's heads in.

Salvini, Trump, Orban, Bolsonaro etc. would gladly kick people's heads in to show their love of their country.

Glad you enjoyed that game, but what an extremely odd analogy to make. 

As the poster above stated, showing pride in something doesn't mean you need to abuse others to demonstrate it. 

(Although if we win in November I might retract this statement ?)

[maxjam]

9 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said:

Nope – absolutely nothing to do with where we’re from.

If we all took a bit more pride in our own actions towards others - that’s all it needs. Everything else just flows naturally from that

So, you could live in a ****hole but so long as you're nice to people thats okay?  You take no pride in the street you live in or park you walk through, if its a disgusting mess whatever I said hello to someone so that makes it alright?

I take a bit of pride in where I'm from and where I live, I pick litter up outside my house and (within reason) do similar around the park when I'm walking my dog.  Taking a bit of pride in where I'm from benefits everyone.

Why don't I support Man Utd or Liverpool?  They are on tv every week and have won numerous trophies during my lifetime, it would certainly be an easier option than following Derby lol.  Its because they are my local team and I take pride in my local area and whilst I don't have much to do with the North or South of the country, it is my country and I take pride in it and want it to do well.  

I can't stand rugby, but that year we won the world cup despite not watching a minute of it or going out celebrating afterwards I still took pride in the fact we'd won.  That and the clear roads when the final was on, I had to be somewhere, forget where now but  I recall the roads being eerily empty ?