Stive Pesley Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 33 minutes ago, jimbobram said: Agreed. It's strange saying you don't mind him leaving when he's the leagues top goalscorer but I just feel that he only fits in 1 system and that system doesn't really suit the rest of the squad. Not another Chris Martin thread? Oh you mean Vydra ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, StivePesley said: Not another Chris Martin thread? Oh you mean Vydra ? hmmm. I think the formation that suited Martin also suited the rest of the squad too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hathersage Ram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 1 hour ago, jimbobram said: hmmm. I think the formation that suited Martin also suited the rest of the squad too. That's why we got promoted ………………….. oh wait a minute we didn't ………. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 20 minutes ago, Hathersage Ram said: That's why we got promoted ………………….. oh wait a minute we didn't ………. If you're going to base the whole season on promotion or not then you're silly. We missed that through 1 single mistake. That was nothing to do with formation, selection, chris martin or Steve Mac. A mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanish Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, jimbobram said: If you're going to base the whole season on promotion or not then you're silly. We missed that through 1 single mistake. That was nothing to do with formation, selection, chris martin or Steve Mac. A mistake. over the whole season we failed to win enough games for automatic promotion and in the final we failed to score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hathersage Ram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 17 minutes ago, jimbobram said: If you're going to base the whole season on promotion or not then you're silly. We missed that through 1 single mistake. That was nothing to do with formation, selection, chris martin or Steve Mac. A mistake. I think you are being ridiculous, obviously we judge the season on being promoted. This wasn't a team in progress, it was set up for achieving promotion ……………… and we didn't secure automatic promotion ……….. and failed to score in the playoff final! We did not miss out on promotion due to one mistake, we didn't get automatic and also if we hadn't made the mistake (by arguably one of our most dependable players) we wouldn't have got promoted, we didn't score. Some people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 15 minutes ago, Spanish said: over the whole season we failed to win enough games for automatic promotion and in the final we failed to score That season Mac took over at/after Ipswich. He changed the formation and brought in a couple loans in Jan. We shot up the table. If we had him before maybe we would have. That was the most successful season we've had in a long time. Just because we didn't go up doesn't mean we failed. That mind set of it being a failure and ripping the squad apart, rather than tweaking it is why we are in the mess we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 8 minutes ago, Hathersage Ram said: I think you are being ridiculous, obviously we judge the season on being promoted. This wasn't a team in progress, it was set up for achieving promotion ……………… and we didn't secure automatic promotion ……….. and failed to score in the playoff final! We did not miss out on promotion due to one mistake, we didn't get automatic and also if we hadn't made the mistake (by arguably one of our most dependable players) we wouldn't have got promoted, we didn't score. Some people That season we was nothing. We started with Clough. Nothing changed from the previous 4/5 or however many years he was here. His team WAS a team in progress. It didn't go well at the start of the season and he got sacked. Mac came in and changed things. The season started from there for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePrisoner Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 18 hours ago, BuckoBeast said: Afobe In advanced talks with stoke so don’t think they’ll be in for Vyds John Percy said claims that Rowett was going for Vydra, Davies and Carson were admitted false by Stoke sources. So don’t think he’ll come for any of our players really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hathersage Ram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 52 minutes ago, jimbobram said: That season we was nothing. We started with Clough. Nothing changed from the previous 4/5 or however many years he was here. His team WAS a team in progress. It didn't go well at the start of the season and he got sacked. Mac came in and changed things. The season started from there for us. Rubbish! That team in the play off final, how did it evolve exactly, it didn't! That was Mac's (Version 1) vision, no alternative. You check that team that lost and see how many changed the following season etc. And obviously employing an ex-England manger expectations were high. Clough left in late September, so Mac had plenty of opportunity to have alternative systems etc, but no, lets play everything to suit Martin. That's why we didn't get promoted, the lack of another plan/system. This is not knocking Martin, but teams had worked our one dimensional football out. 6 of that team are still at the club now, Hughes and Hendrick are the notable exceptions. Bryson was playing and is technically still ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaRam Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 Blimey people still arguing over Chris Martin and the 13/14 season. Think we need some transfer news to give something else for people to talk/moan about!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 8 minutes ago, Hathersage Ram said: Rubbish! That team in the play off final, how did it evolve exactly, it didn't! Playing style - Nigel played to not lose - McClaren played to win Arguably that was his downfall in the second season - When injuries hit he still 'went for it' and our defence got bludgeoned - That's why we had so many high-scoring games back end of that season The thing Martin always gave us was a defensive break, his ability to hold up the ball allowed us to re-organise at the back - Bent couldn't hold the ball and we didn't get that break - It was a little naive not to switch to a more defensive way of playing when we lost Martin but the intent to attack is one I personally don't complain about I'd say that's been the biggest problem we've had since McClaren left - Pearson, Clement and Rowett were all "don't lose" managers for us - They set up to try and not lose and then hope they can break and get a win - I'm very much hoping Lampard has a bit more confidence and plays to win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Hathersage Ram said: ...but teams had worked our one dimensional football out. This is such a nonsense statement. It has been knocked back over and over again. Our football wasn't one-dimensional and we won lots of matches - now last seasons certainly was, but was that found out or where we just not good enough?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hathersage Ram Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 59 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: This is such a nonsense statement. It has been knocked back over and over again. Our football wasn't one-dimensional and we won lots of matches - now last seasons certainly was, but was that found out or where we just not good enough?! In your opinion! Yes we did win lots of matches, but some teams worked out how to negate Martin's influence on the game, and in not only my opinion but lots of others (managers/coaches/ex players/pundits) this meant us being unable to break teams down. Either way, agree or disagree the system and team were not good enough for promotion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 4 hours ago, Hathersage Ram said: That's why we got promoted ………………….. oh wait a minute we didn't ………. Yet, we have not got closer than that in the last 10 years. LET'S RIP IT UP AND PRETEND IT WAS RUBBISH! (We also played the best football we've seen in the past 10 years) 3 hours ago, Hathersage Ram said: We did not miss out on promotion due to one mistake, we didn't get automatic and also if we hadn't made the mistake (by arguably one of our most dependable players) we wouldn't have got promoted, we didn't score. Which was due to starting the season with Nigel Clough, based on what we saw from McClaren, it is reasonable to assume if he was there for the full year we would have made autos. 2 hours ago, Hathersage Ram said: ac had plenty of opportunity to have alternative systems etc, but no, lets play everything to suit Martin. That's why we didn't get promoted, the lack of another plan/system. This is not knocking Martin, but teams had worked our one dimensional football out. Please stop talking revisionist balls. That is not why we didn't get promoted. The reasons are we had one mediocre performance in a final and that we started the reason with Clough. We were comfortably good enough for autos if we had McClaren all year. One dimensional football, okay, name a team in this league that can comfortably play two styles of play? I'll wait. Teams didn't work out our style of play at all. That's why Brighton got slaughtered over two legs, that's why we smashed our way into third. Helps if you have stats to back up your attempt to rewrite history to fit your narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 If folk want to bang on about Chris Martin then there are ample threads to do so. This is the transfers section and, I'd hoped, a small sanctuary from the endless re-hashing of a season that we really need to get over. What happens next is what matters, the rest is just history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AutoWindscreens Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 19 minutes ago, Andicis said: Which was due to starting the season with Nigel Clough, based on what we saw from McClaren, it is reasonable to assume if he was there for the full year we would have made autos. That is not why we didn't get promoted. The reasons are we had one mediocre performance in a final and that we started the reason with Clough. We were comfortably good enough for autos if we had McClaren all year. OK, I'll bite. If you take the teams Clough played in 13/14, didn't we get the same points from the reverse fixtures under McClaren? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, AutoWindscreens said: OK, I'll bite. If you take the teams Clough played in 13/14, didn't we get the same points from the reverse fixtures under McClaren? Potentially, but that is completely irrelevant to me. I'm 99% certain if we played those fixtures under McClaren we would have done better, by looking at their entire Derby careers, and past records, 53% and 45% win rates for Mac's two spells vs 33% in Clough, it is hardly without reason to suggest what I am suggesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AutoWindscreens Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 36 minutes ago, Andicis said: Potentially, but that is completely irrelevant to me. I'm 99% certain if we played those fixtures under McClaren we would have done better, by looking at their entire Derby careers, and past records, 53% and 45% win rates for Mac's two spells vs 33% in Clough, it is hardly without reason to suggest what I am suggesting. Without fair reason. Comparing SM's 53% to Clough's 33% means you're comparing SM's easy job with the 13/14, 14/15 team to Clough's tough job with the 09/10, 10/11, etc. teams, which ain't fair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 47 minutes ago, AutoWindscreens said: OK, I'll bite. If you take the teams Clough played in 13/14, didn't we get the same points from the reverse fixtures under McClaren? I think we picked up an extra point in the reverse fixtures - Including taking 3 points from Forest in the home fixture - A game many remember fondly That includes the defining game of the season for me as well - Burnley away where we had more of the ball, played the better football, got Martin sent off for a dive which wasn't a dive and still seemed to play better than them with 10 men - Could have gone within a point of them (I think?) and the following games we seem unable to shake off the shadow of disappointment at not getting close to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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