Where is George Thorne?

[rammieib]

When you go from 2nd to 7th, and play football as bad as we do, everyone is going to blame someone else and fractions are an inevitability.

There are only two things that can be done to turn it around; 1) A different manager and coaching staff come in with a different ethos and instantly players get a different vibe from it or 2) The manager changes his own approach quite drastically. That is more difficult to implement, could be different players and formation contributing to a different ethos on the pitch or a massive overhaul of players. 

Gerenally point two takes longer to implement than point one, as we've seen by the number of different managers (Mel going for the manager approach). For point two to work though, you need to have a manager who is prepared to make these changes and is good enough to. Therein lies the problem for me, we've got a manager who promotes defence at the expense of attack, employs long ball tactics to no hope strikers, restricts opportunities for full backs to get forward aggressively, plays two defensive midfielders and leaves arguably the most creative player on the bench every game despite losing game after game.

I was sad at Mac going, I was sad at Clement going, Pearson was the correct call but Rowett is failing badly and is tainting his decent reputation now.

I appreciate the fans are split on him and some (half?) want my point two over point one but for those who like him I have to ask the question of whethe you genuinely believe he can conduct a major overhaul of players and culture in this team and come out next season with a different mindset?

[Rev]

3 minutes ago, rammieib said:

When you go from 2nd to 7th, and play football as bad as we do, everyone is going to blame someone else and fractions are an inevitability.

There are only two things that can be done to turn it around; 1) A different manager and coaching staff come in with a different ethos and instantly players get a different vibe from it or 2) The manager changes his own approach quite drastically. That is more difficult to implement, could be different players and formation contributing to a different ethos on the pitch or a massive overhaul of players. 

Gerenally point two takes longer to implement than point one, as we've seen by the number of different managers (Mel going for the manager approach). For point two to work though, you need to have a manager who is prepared to make these changes and is good enough to. Therein lies the problem for me, we've got a manager who promotes defence at the expense of attack, employs long ball tactics to no hope strikers, restricts opportunities for full backs to get forward aggressively, plays two defensive midfielders and leaves arguably the most creative player on the bench every game despite losing game after game.

I was sad at Mac going, I was sad at Clement going, Pearson was the correct call but Rowett is failing badly and is tainting his decent reputation now.

I appreciate the fans are split on him and some (half?) want my point two over point one but for those who like him I have to ask the question of whethe you genuinely believe he can conduct a major overhaul of players and culture in this team and come out next season with a different mindset?

This article would say no.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/features/13623-gary-rowett-wasn-t-perfect-but-birmingham-s-move-for-zola-makes-little-sense

He's set in his ways, that's his prerogative, doesn't mean it will work here.

[tomsdubs]

Thorne has been overweight and slow all season, can't really say we miss him right now. We don't need another statue alongside Huddlestone getting beat like they don't exist.

[irobinson]

Don’t understand what’s gone on with George

 

if he’s fit what’s up? No excuse for being overweight - he s a pro footballer!

 

and where did his passing go? 

 

Doesnt add up - must have problem either personally or just wants new scenary 

[ariotofmyown]

Is it worth someone making up a story about someones wife/gf? That's the usual rubbish that comes out in situations like this.

[archied]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Is it worth someone making up a story about someones wife/gf? That's the usual rubbish that comes out in situations like this.

What like George has broken a toe in a mucky liaison with Tom Lawrence’s mum,,,, itk 

[ilkleyram]

13 hours ago, rammieib said:

When you go from 2nd to 7th, and play football as bad as we do, everyone is going to blame someone else and fractions are an inevitability.

There are only two things that can be done to turn it around; 1) A different manager and coaching staff come in with a different ethos and instantly players get a different vibe from it or 2) The manager changes his own approach quite drastically. That is more difficult to implement, could be different players and formation contributing to a different ethos on the pitch or a massive overhaul of players. 

Gerenally point two takes longer to implement than point one, as we've seen by the number of different managers (Mel going for the manager approach). For point two to work though, you need to have a manager who is prepared to make these changes and is good enough to. Therein lies the problem for me, we've got a manager who promotes defence at the expense of attack, employs long ball tactics to no hope strikers, restricts opportunities for full backs to get forward aggressively, plays two defensive midfielders and leaves arguably the most creative player on the bench every game despite losing game after game.

I was sad at Mac going, I was sad at Clement going, Pearson was the correct call but Rowett is failing badly and is tainting his decent reputation now.

I appreciate the fans are split on him and some (half?) want my point two over point one but for those who like him I have to ask the question of whethe you genuinely believe he can conduct a major overhaul of players and culture in this team and come out next season with a different mindset?

Blimey, a thread that asks about George Thorne turns into yet another discussion about Gary Rowett’s abilities, or not.  But as I do like him (Gary Rowett) rammieib, I’ll try and answer your question.  I like George Thorne too, by the way.

The simple answer is that I have no idea whether he will conduct a ‘major’ overhaul of players before next season.  He can do but whether he’s allowed to is different, and Mel has already suggested that Gary’s hands will be somewhat tied – Mel has said that the current payroll is ‘unsustainable’ and that there will be a greater concentration on academy players next year (I paraphrase). But finances and FFP (which are not exactly the same thing) will both play a part in what Gary or any new manager will do, or more importantly will be able to do, in the summer transfer window.

It may be, of course, that money will be available but that Mel is just trying to give agents and other clubs a message that Derby aren’t going to overpay any more, but those same limitations will apply to anyone.

The next question, which you didn’t ask, is whether Gary thinks a ‘major overhaul’ of the players and culture is appropriate.  

Gary will be unique amongst all football managers ever in the history of football if he didn’t think that his team and squad couldn’t be improved.  By definition therefore (as well as the experience of the last few weeks) he will want to make changes and additions to the squad with, overall, more players out than in. That could mean having to trade some of the players we would ideally like to keep but who might be the only ones wanted by others (Vydra is an example), and keeping others who cannot be off loaded (Butterfield is an example) until their contracts are nearly or at an end.

But overall I don’t believe that Gary will think that the squad needs a ‘major’ overhaul, even if he was allowed to do so or even if he were able to do so.  And I don’t believe that any manager, whoever Mel might appoint, would do that.  He will want to improve it – both playing and mental strength - but that’s different. This is a squad that has been in the top 10 of the division most of the season; it went on a long unbeaten run; kept a lot of clean sheets and has scored over 60 goals.  It has also come up short under pressure (again) and not played the confident, flowing football that Gary would probably like to play, in anything other than patches.

So, it’s a squad that needs adjusting.  Players out and (fewer) players in.  We can argue about who might fit into either group but, as always it will depend upon Derby, the player and any buying club (plus agents, FFP, valuations etc).  Sir Brian signed Dave Mackay and Willie Carlin after his first full season. Dave was 34 when he signed, Willie was 28, but after a slow start they made that 68/69 team Division 2 Champions.  They also joined a relatively small squad some of whom turned out (but weren’t then) to be international class players

[Dethorn]

I Wonder if selling Hughes and Hendrick, letting Bryson and Butterfield go out on loan has detrimentally affected George.

During all that draw out transfer process with WBA I got the feeling that our midfield enjoyed playing together and as such complimented each other well.

If I were George I would rather sit deep looking at Hughes and HEndrick in front of me - rather than sitting deep next to someone less mobile than me now

[cannable]

18 minutes ago, cannable said:

Is it?

Is George playing ***** because the injuries have done him in or is it once again, the system? 

Under McClaren he would make an angle for himself, receive the ball from the centre-halves, spin and have five players ahead of him and pushed-up full-backs. He could spread the play or find Hughes, Bryson, Jeff or Dawkins in ‘the half-space’. The following game is a prime example of this. 

Now-a-days he’s limited to the right side of the midfield and starting further up the pitch so he’s not receiving it on the half-turn, he’s receiving it face on, and being limited to one side of the pitch further limits his opportunity to turn. 

And now whenever he is turned he’s positioned so that his options are two square passes left or right, a diagonal to Lawrence or in behind for Nugent. The only ‘trademark George pass’ he ever has on is for Vydra.

Then take into account that off the ball he isn’t fast or energetic enough.

There have been five minute spells every now and again where he has dropped in between the centre-halves and taken some control of the game, which makes me think it isn’t him.

And to avoid that looking a sycophantic defence of him I think Huddlestone has the same problems. As he’s more comfortable playing it short, first time with his left and his trademark passing is in-behind rather than zipped to feet though I think he’s just about coping. 

Both belong at the base of a three.

I should probably have posted this in here if I’m honest. 

[Chris Mills]

21 hours ago, PodgeyRam said:

As I've said in the title really. Where is he?

We haven't seen him since the Sunderland debacle where despite the fact he was well below standard, we got worse when we took him off the pitch.

I've not seen any statement put out by the club saying he's injured. Johnson played in that match, has been injured since and has already returned to the team.

Has he had a bust up with Rowett?

Edit:  Here's a nice and precise thread title for you to enjoy @StringerBell

Saw him at Champneys Springs Spa not too long ago with his missus. 

Its a hard life for both me and him. 

[LesterRam]

Is he saving the swans?

[MACKWORTHRAM]

Drove past him walking past Markeaton Lane in Allestree yesterday. 

The last game he played against Sunderland. He looked massively unfit and slightly overweight in my opinion.

Barring any injuries I'd say to him focus on playing for the U23s to build your fitness. Go away in the summer. Come back fit and be ready for a tough pre season. 

Because he cannot have completed a pre season for at least 3 years. 

I know the last one. He came back 2 works early and looked in great shape. Then first week of pre season his hamstring went and he didn't come back till September. 

Players like Thorne have to have a pre season or they're playing catch up from the start. He then needs 4 or 5 solid first team games on the bounce to get up to speed. 

If he comes back fit. Gets a good pre season in him. We've got a player. A very good one at that. 

But if he misses pre season again. It's curtains for me. 

Can't see him leaving in the summer cos there's not a club out there that would sign a player with that injury record. 

[bcnram]

George Thorne simply does not fit into the team anymore. He passes the ball along the ground and seems incapable of booting it 25 metres into the air towards the approximate direction of the corner of the pitch. He is not a Rowett type player so one of them has to go. Here is hoping to see George in pre-season.

[Papahet]

Probably got the runs and out for 9 months knowin' his luck.

[rammieib]

7 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

Blimey, a thread that asks about George Thorne turns into yet another discussion about Gary Rowett’s abilities, or not.  But as I do like him (Gary Rowett) rammieib, I’ll try and answer your question.  I like George Thorne too, by the way.

The simple answer is that I have no idea whether he will conduct a ‘major’ overhaul of players before next season.  He can do but whether he’s allowed to is different, and Mel has already suggested that Gary’s hands will be somewhat tied – Mel has said that the current payroll is ‘unsustainable’ and that there will be a greater concentration on academy players next year (I paraphrase). But finances and FFP (which are not exactly the same thing) will both play a part in what Gary or any new manager will do, or more importantly will be able to do, in the summer transfer window.

It may be, of course, that money will be available but that Mel is just trying to give agents and other clubs a message that Derby aren’t going to overpay any more, but those same limitations will apply to anyone.

The next question, which you didn’t ask, is whether Gary thinks a ‘major overhaul’ of the players and culture is appropriate.  

Gary will be unique amongst all football managers ever in the history of football if he didn’t think that his team and squad couldn’t be improved.  By definition therefore (as well as the experience of the last few weeks) he will want to make changes and additions to the squad with, overall, more players out than in. That could mean having to trade some of the players we would ideally like to keep but who might be the only ones wanted by others (Vydra is an example), and keeping others who cannot be off loaded (Butterfield is an example) until their contracts are nearly or at an end.

But overall I don’t believe that Gary will think that the squad needs a ‘major’ overhaul, even if he was allowed to do so or even if he were able to do so.  And I don’t believe that any manager, whoever Mel might appoint, would do that.  He will want to improve it – both playing and mental strength - but that’s different. This is a squad that has been in the top 10 of the division most of the season; it went on a long unbeaten run; kept a lot of clean sheets and has scored over 60 goals.  It has also come up short under pressure (again) and not played the confident, flowing football that Gary would probably like to play, in anything other than patches.

So, it’s a squad that needs adjusting.  Players out and (fewer) players in.  We can argue about who might fit into either group but, as always it will depend upon Derby, the player and any buying club (plus agents, FFP, valuations etc).  Sir Brian signed Dave Mackay and Willie Carlin after his first full season. Dave was 34 when he signed, Willie was 28, but after a slow start they made that 68/69 team Division 2 Champions.  They also joined a relatively small squad some of whom turned out (but weren’t then) to be international class players

I like your response for the well thought approach although disagree but that's just opinions.

One point though - I follow someone on twitter who is a finance expert and trawls through the accounts of football clubs in significant detail (Ramblur credentials). I asked him how much we could lose in this  current financial year and stay within FFP. He said £23 million would be the allowable loss this year and stay within £39m over three years.

My point being here is that when the club use FFP as an excuse to cut back, I don't buy it at all. If it was that MM no longer wants to waste his millions, I'd believe that. If it was that the club wanted to balance the books more and not haemorrhage cash every week on over the hill thirty something players I could go with that also but to simply say FFP is restricting us I don't buy this one bit.

Thank you for answering the question however with an educated response instead of abuse!

[Rev]

5 minutes ago, rammieib said:

I like your response for the well thought approach although disagree but that's just opinions.

One point though - I follow someone on twitter who is a finance expert and trawls through the accounts of football clubs in significant detail (Ramblur credentials). I asked him how much we could lose in this  current financial year and stay within FFP. He said £23 million would be the allowable loss this year and stay within £39m over three years.

My point being here is that when the club use FFP as an excuse to cut back, I don't buy it at all. If it was that MM no longer wants to waste his millions, I'd believe that. If it was that the club wanted to balance the books more and not haemorrhage cash every week on over the hill thirty something players I could go with that also but to simply say FFP is restricting us I don't buy this one bit.

Thank you for answering the question however with an educated response instead of abuse!

I agree regarding the financial side, I too think it's choice rather than being forced upon us.

I won't knock Mel for that though, he must despair at the amount he's tossed away so far.

We can only hope that restricted funds will lead to a sharper focus on how we spend the funds available, although the evidence under Rowett so far doesn't fill me with confidence.

[oldtimeram]

If Morris has had enough of putting his own dosh in to the team building maybe he is looking to offload the club?  Can't blame him if he is. I would not waste my money on this lot. 

[rammieib]

6 minutes ago, oldtimeram said:

If Morris has had enough of putting his own dosh in to the team building maybe he is looking to offload the club?  Can't blame him if he is. I would not waste my money on this lot. 

I think a football club (pro sports team) is unlike any other type of business and when you're a fan and have an alliance it must be so so difficult.

At the back of his mind he must also know the value of the club being in the Prem is so much higher and he could recoup all his money if he sold it when we're in the Prem. Getting there is another question.

However when you see the subsidy he must put in (in whatever form) get wasted every year by incompetencies eveywhere (on and off the pitch) it must be really galling.

 

[Dr. Gonzo]

He's had his fingers burnt though hasnt he. He knows we can't go on forever spunking money on players that dont, arnt likely to or havent made the grade. Lord knows we've tried that. The QPR effect. Welcome back the "Barker type fee". Maybe scouting will get abit of attention now. Our previous strategy of "is he available to sign if we spend over 5 million? regardless of his actual market value", "this purple patch isnt likely to end after we sign him for top dollar is it?"  or "has he had promotion or player of the year sometime in the last 5 years?", hasnt really been doing the business for us so far. We've done it again..... we've done it agaaaaaaaaaain, we're Derby County, we've done it again! We need to embrace that chant until we've either got a better song or something to sing about. 

[ramblur]

51 minutes ago, rammieib said:

.

One point though - I follow someone on twitter who is a finance expert and trawls through the accounts of football clubs in significant detail (Ramblur credentials). I asked him how much we could lose in this  current financial year and stay within FFP. He said £23 million would be the allowable loss this year and stay within £39m over three years.

 

We have 2 facts to go on:- the Club gave the 15/16 FFP loss at £9m (which, because of possible rounding, could mean £8.5m-£9.5m), and the headline loss for 16/17 was just under £8m. You could see how he/she arrived at C£23m from those figures but the headline loss isn't the same as the FFP loss, because you have to deduct sizeable FFP exemptions - I reckon our FFP loss could be under £2m. in 16/17Even if you accepted being able to post a £23m FFP loss, we couldn't really do it, because that would only leave £16m for 18/19 and 19/20 (if we didn't go up). If we posted a high FFP loss (over the £13m for this year), then you have to cut back hard over the following 2 years, and the higher you go over £13m, the more you have to cut. There comes a stage (that I don't, and can't possibly, know) where the cutbacks needed would be well nigh impossible to achieve.