Derby County F.C. v Sunderland A.F.C

[BobbyD]

Just a few reflections on the game last night after the dust has settled, as it were.

• Personally I found the whole experience absolutely fascinating, in a 'watching a car crash' kind of way. This was no ordinary poor performance, In fact it cant really be given a description of 'performance'. What I experienced last night goes much, much deeper than concerns about 'performance'
• I have tried to look at it in the same way that you would look at any team working together, in any environment, any where in the world : work, play, family, whatever. What I witnessed last night was a complete and fundamental breakdown in structures,  standards, respect, understanding, confidence, pride, desire, the lot. In fact any characteristic that underpins normal 'team'work.
• Towards the end, most of the players (probably all) were demonstrating behaviour more commonly seen in severely stressed and depressed individuals - bewilderment, a complete discarding of previously learnt standards , a breakdown in the link between ability and actual performance, a 'blank' space in terms of putting into place what they wanted to do, not knowing anymore what actually needed to be done.
• The reaction of supporters was equally interesting. There were many clearly angered, understandably so. And that sparked off others to show their support. What I found incredible, though, was the reaction of two people who sit behind us and who tend to moan and critisize  every game at every opportunity. Where they symptomatic of many others ?  At what we thought (hoped) was the low point, in the first half , after we conceded the second, they were at their most vocal. Then came Vydra's spectacular goal, almost out of nowhere. Looking round immediately to see the reaction of these two to our goal, which got us right back into the game, it was astonishing to witness. Sat down, arms crossed, refusing to celebrate in any way, looking as miserable as someone who had  just lost a close relative. The fact is, that these two did not want us to succeed . It made them unhappy that we had done well in that instant. Make of that what you will.
• So the question is, why did this happen ?
• My experience and knowledge of events of this nature - the total and fundamental disintegration of team activity - tells me that it comes only from one place, and that is the very top of the organisation.  Of course, everyone can blame individuals, mistakes happen, things go wrong. Individuals mess stuff up from time to time. But for something as fundamental and serious as this to happen , you only need to look at the team leaders at the very top of an organisation when starting to investigate what has happened. That is because it is they who are responsible for the team and the culture behind how the team operates. In other words, Mel and Gary are the ones who need to be answerable for what happened on friday night - no-one else. And it leaves, I'm afraid, huge question marks over the capability of both of them. Any senior manager of any team in any environment, work , public sector, private sector, charity, local sports club, etc etc who was over-seeing such an event as we all witnessed on friday night, would absolutely be expecting not to be working anymore  in that environment on the following monday morning .
• These things do not happen overnight, by accident. They are the result of prolonged and deep-rooted fundamental issues within an organisation that have then come to a head for one reason or another.-   Its interesting that this has happened in the same week that the Sam Rush legal case relevations have come to public viewing  -   A number of players in our team on friday night were , in fact , signed during Rush's tenure   - Mel Morris, who has no experience whatsoever in managing professional football teams, has apparently taken it upon himself to do just that  
• And then you have the very simplistic fans view of what they see on the pitch  - How is it that players like Johnson, Thorne, Lawrence and Forsyth can earn a living as a professional footballer when they are apparently incapable, over months and months of matches ,  of passing a football to a player with the same colour shirt as them ? - similarly how can a player like Wiemann represent the people of Derby at football when he has such difficulty in simply putting one foot in front of another if within 30 yards of the opposition goal line - Why is it that players like Johnson, Thorne, Lawrence, Wiemann do not actually understand how to tackle an opposition player without giving a foul away ? - When our team is two goals down at home to the worst team in the division, why do we still have eleven players in our own penalty box when facing dead ball situations ?  I am afraid that it beggars belief

I have always been a big supporter of the manager and owner of Derby County. 

But what happened on friday night was so shocking, so unacceptable , so fundamentally wrong, that I am afraid that it is clear that no progress will be made until both become part of the history . 

And there are those on here, including the one who's name rhymes with 'angry'  who have long banged on about this . So it is time for some humble pie from me to say "maybe you were right all along". 

 

 

 

[Derby blood]

2 hours ago, BobbyD said:

Just a few reflections on the game last night after the dust has settled, as it were.

• Personally I found the whole experience absolutely fascinating, in a 'watching a car crash' kind of way. This was no ordinary poor performance, In fact it cant really be given a description of 'performance'. What I experienced last night goes much, much deeper than concerns about 'performance'
• I have tried to look at it in the same way that you would look at any team working together, in any environment, any where in the world : work, play, family, whatever. What I witnessed last night was a complete and fundamental breakdown in structures,  standards, respect, understanding, confidence, pride, desire, the lot. In fact any characteristic that underpins normal 'team'work.
• Towards the end, most of the players (probably all) were demonstrating behaviour more commonly seen in severely stressed and depressed individuals - bewilderment, a complete discarding of previously learnt standards , a breakdown in the link between ability and actual performance, a 'blank' space in terms of putting into place what they wanted to do, not knowing anymore what actually needed to be done.
• The reaction of supporters was equally interesting. There were many clearly angered, understandably so. And that sparked off others to show their support. What I found incredible, though, was the reaction of two people who sit behind us and who tend to moan and critisize  every game at every opportunity. Where they symptomatic of many others ?  At what we thought (hoped) was the low point, in the first half , after we conceded the second, they were at their most vocal. Then came Vydra's spectacular goal, almost out of nowhere. Looking round immediately to see the reaction of these two to our goal, which got us right back into the game, it was astonishing to witness. Sat down, arms crossed, refusing to celebrate in any way, looking as miserable as someone who had  just lost a close relative. The fact is, that these two did not want us to succeed . It made them unhappy that we had done well in that instant. Make of that what you will.
• So the question is, why did this happen ?
• My experience and knowledge of events of this nature - the total and fundamental disintegration of team activity - tells me that it comes only from one place, and that is the very top of the organisation.  Of course, everyone can blame individuals, mistakes happen, things go wrong. Individuals mess stuff up from time to time. But for something as fundamental and serious as this to happen , you only need to look at the team leaders at the very top of an organisation when starting to investigate what has happened. That is because it is they who are responsible for the team and the culture behind how the team operates. In other words, Mel and Gary are the ones who need to be answerable for what happened on friday night - no-one else. And it leaves, I'm afraid, huge question marks over the capability of both of them. Any senior manager of any team in any environment, work , public sector, private sector, charity, local sports club, etc etc who was over-seeing such an event as we all witnessed on friday night, would absolutely be expecting not to be working anymore  in that environment on the following monday morning .
• These things do not happen overnight, by accident. They are the result of prolonged and deep-rooted fundamental issues within an organisation that have then come to a head for one reason or another.-   Its interesting that this has happened in the same week that the Sam Rush legal case relevations have come to public viewing  -   A number of players in our team on friday night were , in fact , signed during Rush's tenure   - Mel Morris, who has no experience whatsoever in managing professional football teams, has apparently taken it upon himself to do just that  
• And then you have the very simplistic fans view of what they see on the pitch  - How is it that players like Johnson, Thorne, Lawrence and Forsyth can earn a living as a professional footballer when they are apparently incapable, over months and months of matches ,  of passing a football to a player with the same colour shirt as them ? - similarly how can a player like Wiemann represent the people of Derby at football when he has such difficulty in simply putting one foot in front of another if within 30 yards of the opposition goal line - Why is it that players like Johnson, Thorne, Lawrence, Wiemann do not actually understand how to tackle an opposition player without giving a foul away ? - When our team is two goals down at home to the worst team in the division, why do we still have eleven players in our own penalty box when facing dead ball situations ?  I am afraid that it beggars belief

I have always been a big supporter of the manager and owner of Derby County. 

But what happened on friday night was so shocking, so unacceptable , so fundamentally wrong, that I am afraid that it is clear that no progress will be made until both become part of the history . 

And there are those on here, including the one who's name rhymes with 'angry'  who have long banged on about this . So it is time for some humble pie from me to say "maybe you were right all along". 

 

 

 

So we are overachieving this season by being in the top six, and know one expected this at the start of the season and after last night you want a manager sacked, this is what's wrong with the modern day sky fan, they over react, Derby needs consistence more now than at any other time for a long time, so if we win at Preston on Monday will you say you where wrong, lets judge things over time,  not one VERY poor game.

[BobbyD]

7 minutes ago, Derby blood said:

So we are overachieving this season by being in the top six, and know one expected this at the start of the season and after last night you want a manager sacked, this is what's wrong with the modern day sky fan, they over react, Derby needs consistence more now than at any other time for a long time, so if we win at Preston on Monday will you say you where wrong, lets judge things over time,  not one VERY poor game.

Can you just outline this again please.

Be great if it was in English

Had some depth

Was filled with accuracy

Addressed what was said in my post

And didn't show all the signs of inebriation 

Other than that : Well done, sonny !

You must be very, very proud

Good show

[BobbyD]

11 minutes ago, BobbyD said:

Can you just outline this again please.

Be great if it was in English

Had some depth

Was filled with accuracy

Addressed what was said in my post

And didn't show all the signs of inebriation 

Other than that : Well done, sonny !

You must be very, very proud

Good show

PS I will be at Preston

Please introduce yourself and lets have a chat about which of us is the better Rams fan

So looking forward to it 

[North East Ram]

6 minutes ago, BobbyD said:

Can you just outline this again please.

Be great if it was in English

Had some depth

Was filled with accuracy

Addressed what was said in my post

And didn't show all the signs of inebriation 

Other than that : Well done, sonny !

You must be very, very proud

Good show

Unfortunately this is the standard of Gary's support, Bobby. You've made some fair and balanced points but get shot down by the blinkered few as if you're the one who's off their rocker. Oh the irony. It's hard enough trying to explain to folk that Gary's idea of football is appalling but when his bodyguards attack with the intellectual ineptitude of a broken house brick, it's all just too tedious.

 

[Rev]

21 minutes ago, BobbyD said:

PS I will be at Preston

Please introduce yourself and lets have a chat about which of us is the better Rams fan

So looking forward to it 

You're quoting yourself here.

Don't be surprised if the poster agrees with you. 

[Derby blood]

9 hours ago, BobbyD said:

PS I will be at Preston

Please introduce yourself and lets have a chat about which of us is the better Rams fan

So looking forward to it 

Will not be at Preston, but should be at Wolves, you might be a great Rams fan like myself lol, been going home and away since 1979, as a 7 year old, but changing your mind after 1 defeat on Friday, however badly we played is a joke, judge managers over a season, and for me Gary is doing a good job in difficult circumstances, sorry you do not think my English is very good, but for the record I was better at sports then English and maths, just a simple supporter who loves his club and beer, I might buy you a pint at Wolves if we bump into each other, enjoy the game, and hope we win, then you might change your mind again about the manager, Once a RAM always a RAM.

[Angry Ram]

10 hours ago, Derby blood said:

So we are overachieving this season by being in the top six, and know one expected this at the start of the season and after last night you want a manager sacked, this is what's wrong with the modern day sky fan, they over react, Derby needs consistence more now than at any other time for a long time, so if we win at Preston on Monday will you say you where wrong, lets judge things over time,  not one VERY poor game.

In all honesty, it’s been more than one very poor game. We have overachieved in a really poor division, we are still in the mix due to others rather than us. I would agree you should never change your position based on one game but it’s really not that is it, if you are honest with yourself. 

My issues with DCFC are with the club heirachy rather than GR individually,  Gary comes across as a bit of a yes man now, which is a massive same. We have some major issues fella, I love your positivity but there has to come a point where reality hits you in the face.

I don’t know the alternative other than to stick with Rowett.. On a lot of levels, I like the guy, we wear the same style of jumpers ffs. But the thought of another 6 or 7years of not competing playing the football we do now, will kill this club. Play attractive football and lose is acceptable, to a degree. However much more of this.. Hmmmm.

From your previous posts you seem pretty sure you know he will succeed.. Honest question, on what do you base that almost blind faith on?

[Derby blood]

10 minutes ago, Angry Ram said:

In all honesty, it’s been more than one very poor game. We have overachieved in a really poor division, we are still in the mix due to others rather than us. I would agree you should never change your position based on one game but it’s really not that is it, if you are honest with yourself. 

My issues with DCFC are with the club heirachy rather than GR individually,  Gary comes across as a bit of a yes man now, which is a massive same. We have some major issues fella, I love your positivity but there has to come a point where reality hits you in the face.

I don’t know the alternative other than to stick with Rowett.. On a lot of levels, I like the guy, we wear the same style of jumpers ffs. But the thought of another 6 or 7years of not competing playing the football we do now, will kill this club. Play attractive football and lose is acceptable, to a degree. However much more of this.. Hmmmm.

From your previous posts you seem pretty sure you know he will succeed.. Honest question, on what do you base that almost blind faith on?

I agree with a lot of your post, may be I will be wrong, but I have a feeling given time, which NO manager has been given SINCE Nigel Clough, that Gary can take us back to the premiership, but I agree at board level we have been poorly run, this could be down to Sam Rush or Mel Morris, so that's why  I state in my posts that Gary has a lot of sorting out to do, this has happened time and time again to Derby in my time of supporting them, always problems behind the scenes just wished it was all about the playing matters but it never is. Hope we have better times ahead for all US long suffering RAMS FANS.

[S8TY]

15 hours ago, RamNut said:

Both schteve and gary at the time of their appointments were almost ideal candidates. Derby connections, good cv, available etc.

schteves dismissal first time around was for well documented reasons.

second time around, i doubt whether the relationship with mel was as positive.

gary had been interviewed when pearson was appointed, and had kept in contact. There is little doubt that he wanted the job. When schteve got the push the second time gary's availability was a crucial factor. The rumour was that he was about to go to norwich. If mel hadn't acted he would have missed out on rowett, and then would have had no ready made for schteve if he did decide to sack mac2. So the second schteve sacking was in part precipitated by events in norwich.

Gary was the obvious appointment. Most people would accept that.

but once he declared his hand with the transfer activity over the summer, he was playing for high stakes. He appeared to out-pearson pearson by binning hughes and some of the senior players. He had to achieve success or it could rebound on him.

thats where we are currently at. Some of the fans are turning.

so....

it has to be admitted that this time there is no potential suitor waiting in the wings.

but there are still potential candidates.

jokanovic. Plays the 433 system we played. Plays attractive football. Has a great track record with fulham and watford. You could say that he is out of our league, and that might be true. But no-one expected him to leave watford after achieving promotion in style, so.....who knows. Any move couldn't happen until the summer.

graham potter. Has been successful in sweden, and is just waiting for someone to give him a chance in england. He is an intelligent articulate coach. And his knowledge of swedish football might actually be a source of potential signings. He is a bit of a gamble but even experienced english managers are a gamble.

danny cowley - linked with ipswich. Has done a great job at lincoln. They play attractive football. The club is transformed. Big crowds. Easy to say that we are too big for him but he has succeeded where countless others have failed.

ex-rams - paul simpson has done well with england; chris powell - impressed in his caretaker role; lee johnson - bristol city play good football.

Gary is a popular bloke, but if he doesn't win the high stakes game he created, then he could be in trouble. He didn't have to do what he did. And what he has delivered is not great at the moment. his relationship with mel could save him, but for how long? The job will get tougher, and he seems to be focussed on promotion at all costs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some good choices Jokanovic would be awesome I actually wanted Warburton who I think was more suited to the players we had and the style as Brentford showed when played us off the park at PP 

The question I have for all of the Rowett must stay opinions is how long realistically would you give him to turn us into a much better side??and hopefully gain promotion ??

for what it’s worth I’m personally stuck between a rock and a hard place I like GR as a person and know his heart is into this club but...the football has been dreadful let’s be honest 

against Sunderland the amount of long balls aimed to no one in particular especially in the second half was lacking both ideas and our creativity was zero....against a really really poor Sunderland team let’s not pretend they were good they were useless ...yes the players made individual errors but lumping the ball constantly into no one in the second half must’ve come from GR or if it didn’t why didn’t he shout out to get it down and play....Lawrence is not everyone’s favourite and had yet to take off but Sunderland were more worried about him than George Thorne who was terrible ...I’d like to know what George’s pass completion was ...very low I’d assume because he gave it away constantly and looked totally unfit ..taking Lawrence off instead of Thorne made no sense to me unless he was injured .I don’t personally think we deserve or will get a play off place and then what?? 

Go again next season with a similar squad and manager ??? something has to change for me just hope GR can turn it around but I’m not sure ? 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

10 minutes ago, Saity said:

Some good choices I actually wanted Warburton who I think was more suited to the players we had and the style as Brentford showed when played us off the park at PP 

The question I have for all of the Rowett must stay opinions is how long realistically would you give him to turn us into a much better side??and hopefully gain promotion ??

for what it’s worth I’m personally stuck between a rock and a hard place I like GR as a person and know his heart is into this club but...the football has been dreadful let’s be honest 

against Sunderland the amount of long balls aimed to no one in particular especially in the second half was lacking both ideas and our creativity was zero....against a really really poor Sunderland team let’s not pretend they were good they were useless ...yes the players made individual errors but lumping the ball constantly into no one in the second half must’ve come from GR or if it didn’t why didn’t he shout out to get it down and play....Lawrence is not everyone’s favourite and had yet to take off but Sunderland were more worried about him than George Thorne who was terrible ...I’d like to know what George’s pass completion was ...very low I’d assume because he gave it away constantly and looked totally unfit ..taking Lawrence off instead of Thorne made no sense to me unless he was injured .I don’t personally think we deserve or will get a play off place and then what?? 

Ho again next season with a similar squad and manager ??? something has to change for me just hope GR can turn it around but I’m not sure ? 

Would have been Warburton for me too.....at the very least we would have continuity and probably retained our teams spine as well.

[S8TY]

2 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Would have been Warburton for me too.....at the very least we would have continuity and probably retained our teams spine as well.

And you never know might’ve brought Jota and Ryan Woods along from Brentford ...I think GRs style is not exactly getting fans queuing up for tickets !! ?

[Premier ram]

20 hours ago, Pearl Ram said:

...or, how can you discuss Rowett’s replacement with someone who believes his football is fine ?

His football is anything but. That ineptitude displayed last night should make him shudder when he thinks about it, it was produced on his watch. If that’s what almost three weeks uninterrupted on the training field amounts to then the coaching stinks.

I’m not advocating getting rid of him by the way partly because I don’t think a high calibre manager would touch us at the moment.

oh so thats what Gary and his staff were doing on the training ground for 3 weeks , teaching them to head the ball into their own net , pass the ball to the nearest sunderland striker so he can score , and making sure that they trip players in the penalty area , come on GR it was your fault you silly manager you

[europia]

3 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Would have been Warburton for me too.....at the very least we would have continuity and probably retained our teams spine as well.

Or perhaps Warburton would have failed as he was judged to have done at Forest? I expect Mel is going to let Rowett's contract run it's course and see what happens. Don't think he fancies anymore severance payouts. Otherwise, as a club if we are really serious about getting promoted on the cheap, may as well just wait till Warnock becomes available again and bite the bullet. 

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

Just now, europia said:

Or perhaps Warburton would have failed as he was judged to have done at Forest? I expect Mel is going to let Rowett's contract run it's course and see what happens. Don't think he fancies anymore severance payouts. Otherwise, as a club if we are really serious about getting promoted on the cheap, may as well just wait till Warnock becomes available again and bite the bullet. 

Isn't there another way to do it cheaply?

Gather a group of young footballers,get them playing great but perhaps inexperienced football and watch them grow and develop into a challenging side that gets everyone excited?

I'm really not bothered about instant promotion,I just want to see us play and act the right way as a club and when it's all in place,see us challenging for promotion.

What I don't want is what we have at the minute,an ageing set of players,playing poor football with poor discipline under Gary.

 

[europia]

17 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Isn't there another way to do it cheaply?

Gather a group of young footballers,get them playing great but perhaps inexperienced football and watch them grow and develop into a challenging side that gets everyone excited?

I'm really not bothered about instant promotion,I just want to see us play and act the right way as a club and when it's all in place,see us challenging for promotion.

What I don't want is what we have at the minute,an ageing set of players,playing poor football with poor discipline under Gary.

 

It's a nice thought, perhaps it will happen. Maybe this was the long term strategy of Clough, but he left in 2013 and since then the academy players who would have been the nucleus of your suggested method have been sold. To get a squad of that calibre from scratch wont be easy. The current crop of in the academy might produce a few more players capable of playing championship football, but a squad of twenty is must. Will have to see which way Mel goes. Or then again, perhaps at some point.... Mel will go ??

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

Wasn’t at the game due to other commitments but god, I have just watched the 90 minutes and I don’t think we’ve played that bad since the Jewell era. 

I don’t like naming individuals but Forsyth shouldn’t be anywhere near the squad tomorrow. You can’t perform like that. 

Also Thorne is woefully unfit. Can’t blame his injuries anymore, he’s overweight 

[Pearl Ram]

1 hour ago, Premier ram said:

oh so thats what Gary and his staff were doing on the training ground for 3 weeks , teaching them to head the ball into their own net , pass the ball to the nearest sunderland striker so he can score , and making sure that they trip players in the penalty area , come on GR it was your fault you silly manager you

Wouldn’t he want all the credit if things were going well ? I wouldn’t call him silly, maybe not as good as he thinks he is but silly ? Nah.

[DavesaRam]

Well here comes a curved ball. from me:

 

Could it be that what we are seeing is of the player's own doing? On a couple of occasions, when questioning how the "spring fall-off" always happens, there has been the suggestion that the current squad don't actually want to get promoted because most of them would become redundant, and therefore organise the tail-off in performance. I am one of those who have made that suggestion. But if you remember back to the sacking of Nigel Clough. The next match was against Ipswich, with Stevie Mac sitting in the director's box, ready to take over for the following match. Our first half performance was absolutely woeful and we were either 2 or 3 goals down at half-time. Macca went into the dressing room at half-time, even though he wasn't officially the manager and the turn around in performance was dramatic. It may have been stage-managed by Derby to announce the arrival of our saviour but more than likely the dreadful first-half effort was a statement by the players about either the sacking of Nigel Clough, or the manner in which it was done. We had a similar "won't play for this bozo" sessions under Nigel Pearson, and maybe under Paul Clement as well, so could things have gone so wrong behind the scenes that they players are at it again?

[RamNut]

I doubt whether players consciously decide to stage a no-show. But i'm sure they were upset by the sacking of NC and found it hard to perform to their best. Schteve snapped them out of it.