EnigmaRam Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Proof is in the pudding. Ask me in December because right now I see our best most consistent players being shipped out for meagre fees whilst enjoying Twitter pictures of Blackman, Olson and Butterfield smiling and joking at Moor farm. weve ripped apart the management structure and looked to gain stability at the expense of instability on the playing side. Feels like we are doing a cheap Villa but keeping the mercenaries and getting rid of the players that play with pride and consistency. like I said at the beginning, ask me in December and I might feel more positive and have more faith in what Rowetts trying to do as at the moment we haven't seen a ball kicked under his new team so can't really judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 At the moment it feels a bit Tommy Doc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 55 minutes ago, RamNut said: therefore we should build a young side which can develop, mature and provide a base for five or six seasons. Even if we don't go up as long as we are playing good football and getting close, fans will be happy. I agree with you, but I absolutely assure you that fans wouldn't be happy with this scenario. Derby were already one of the more entitled fan bases in the division due to "muh attendances", but since the near miss in the play offs and the injection of Morris' millions we've reached delusions of grandeur of Forest proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bald Eagle's Barmy Army Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 1 hour ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said: Really?......I'm not sure what the point is if I don't enjoy watching the football,after all that's why I watch the game and partly why I support Derby. I know that Mel's "the Derby way" was much derided but I kind of got what he meant. In respect of backing GR,I absolutely will but I'll also back the players too,it's part and parcel to me. I'm reasonably hopeful that with the squad we have,attractive football will follow in any case but with some rowett pragmatism thrown in on the 'grind it out' matches. That combination should see us battling it out for promotion.... When I say 'I just want to get promoted', do you think that if we were to go up, the football we play would have been bad all season? What I mean is, some games we might have to grind results out and the football won't be too pretty, some games we might turn the style on and we blow teams away in the first half and then sit back and preserve energy for another game coming up in 3 days time. I don't care how we play as long as we win and I believe we have a manager who will switch to whatever team and formation is required to win a game, home or away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 We back both, simple as that... GR is being hamstrung by previous manager's poor buys. Our lesser players are on too good a wage for teams of their level to afford, so we're effectively stuck with the likes of Anya & Blackman until their contracts are up. Everybody bar Ince & Carson had a pretty average season so it's no surprise there's no movement on those players we'd like to see shut of. If Ince goes (anything less that £10m would seriously upset me) then so be it, I trust GR to bring in the right players to fit his plans. If he could get Birmingham towards the top with the resources he had there, with a bit of time & support he can do the same for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Saul Pimpson said: There has been so much whining about the sale and potential sale of what many of us consider to be our key players. However the facts are that the likes of Hughes, Keogh & Ince have been mainstays in our side for the last 3 years (2 of the last 3 years for Hughes, 2.5 of the last 3 years for Ince). Our finishes in these seasons have been: 2014-15: 8th 2015-16: 5th 2016-17: 9th Meanwhile our new manager, on a budget of NIL at Birmingham achieved the following finishing positions: 2014-15: 10th 2015-16: 10th 2016-17: 7th (to 14th Dec) Gary Rowett has achieved comparable seasons operating with a much less talented Birmingham squad and a budget of NIL. With a bit of financial backing and a bit of supporter backing, Gary Rowett will likely prove to be more successful at Derby than the likes of Hughes, Keogh & Ince have managed to be. We need to back the man. I wish it was as simple as that calculation but this is football. In answer to your question, back Rowett, absolutely no choice anyway. Just hope the Milky Bar kid does as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curb Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 He'd better get it right, because if he doesn't we'll be even further in the s**t than we were before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I'm not mega fussed about ince leaving if we can bring in a pacey winger to replace him....incy was really over qualified for the role we now need. If we look back to 2013/14,we actually had a better balance with ward and Russell as wingers bouncing off Martin. Perhaps rowett thinks the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archied Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 58 minutes ago, curb said: He'd better get it right, because if he doesn't we'll be even further in the s**t than we were before. Don't get the further in the s**t than before thing ,,, we are a team that have spent the last few seasons in and around the play offs , we are not in major debt , we have saleable assets and a rich owner , good gates and decent commercial revenue ,,, you could sell our top 5 players and any decent manager could keep us well clear of relegation probs so kind of hard to see it the way you've painted it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth's left foot Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Back the Manager. It didn't work with Pearson but Mel hasn't got a crystal ball. The players have failed to get us up so a new approach is needed, some fans should hold their tongue until we see who else is signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalsheep02 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 8 minutes ago, archied said: Don't get the further in the s**t than before thing ,,, we are a team that have spent the last few seasons in and around the play offs , we are not in major debt , we have saleable assets and a rich owner , good gates and decent commercial revenue ,,, you could sell our top 5 players and any decent manager could keep us well clear of relegation probs so kind of hard to see it the way you've painted it I think what the poster might be referring to is a situation similar to that at the end of Jewell's tenure. We currently have players on the books in which there appears to be limited interest but at the same time are fortunate to have saleable assets. Unless the right signings are made with the funds generated we risk: No saleable assets; Lower crowds; Lower commercial revenue; A rich owner with less money than he previously had. What we need to avoid is a repeat of Pearson's tenure when we managed to sell off quality players and replace with some who, to date, have made little positive impact with the result the crowd numbers fell off. Far too early to make any assessment as to whether this is even remotely likely but that is one possible outcome if the wrong decisions are made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 6 hours ago, Saul Pimpson said: I haven't criticised Ince (or Hughes or Keogh). On the contrary, I love watching Tom Ince and will be disappointed if/when he leaves, however I can also see why Rowett might have to cash in on our assets if he's to improve our team over all. But you do agree you only improve the team if you replace them with better players yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, rammieib said: But you do agree you only improve the team if you replace them with better players yes? No, you can create a better TEAM without necessarily bringing in "better" (more talented) individual players. Think Dortmund winning the league versus Bayern's "better" squad of individual players, Atletico Madrid winning La Liga versus Barca & Real's "better" squad of individual players, Huddersfield getting promoted and Derby's "better" squad of individual players finishing 9th. Burton Albion surviving in the Championship! Etc etc. There are countless examples of winning TEAM's being greater than the sum of their parts. For the last 3 years, we have been nowhere near the sum of our parts as we didn't have a good enough team balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammieib Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Just now, Saul Pimpson said: No, you can create a better TEAM without necessarily bringing in "better" (more talented) individual players. Think Dortmund winning the league versus Bayern's "better" squad of individual players, Atletico Madrid winning La Liga versus Barca & Real's "better" squad of individual players, Huddersfield getting promoted and Derby's "better" squad of individual players finishing 9th. Burton Albion surviving in the Championship! Etc etc. There are countless examples of winning TEAM's being greater than the sum of their parts. For the last 3 years, we have been nowhere near the sum of our parts as we didn't have a good enough team balance. Then we will have to disagree as we've now had two years of watching the rubbish that our remaining players are. I do not believe any of them (Maybe Vydra in a Martin partnership but I think he is too lazy) are good enough to stand up. Huddersfield didn't lose anyone in the off season and filled their team with five good loan signings. Burton signed around ten players - agree no stars there (Irvine close) but were are chasing promotion. Newcastle had a number of top players (Shelvey and Gayle) whilst Brighton had 7-8 players that would walk into Derby. I agree teams need to play as teams - still need good players though. I genuinely believe most of our players become passengers during games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carnero Posted June 30, 2017 Author Share Posted June 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, rammieib said: Then we will have to disagree as we've now had two years of watching the rubbish that our remaining players are. I do not believe any of them (Maybe Vydra in a Martin partnership but I think he is too lazy) are good enough to stand up. Huddersfield didn't lose anyone in the off season and filled their team with five good loan signings. Burton signed around ten players - agree no stars there (Irvine close) but were are chasing promotion. Newcastle had a number of top players (Shelvey and Gayle) whilst Brighton had 7-8 players that would walk into Derby. I agree teams need to play as teams - still need good players though. I genuinely believe most of our players become passengers during games. We've not finishing our recruitment yet. Just wait and see what Rowett's team plays like before you give up! It's not even July 1st!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 6 hours ago, RamNut said: I'm really not fussed about promotion unless its achieved in the manner of bournemouth - playing good football which is suited to the Premier league, in a sustinable set up. going up like hull and boro and having a poor season with managerial sackings and relegation isn't really to be envied. therefore we should build a young side which can develop, mature and provide a base for five or six seasons. Even if we don't go up as long as we are playing good football and getting close, fans will be happy. I can't really tell what direction GR is trying to go in yet. He seems like a cross between Pearson - scorched earth, smash it up and start again; and Nigel clough - pragmatic, cost cutting, grind it out. There is bound to be some rebuild, and moving away from the spend, spend, spend, qpr-style which is welcome. But at the moment it is just too early to see what it is we are trying to build. The doubts are probably because of his apparent enthusiasm for Butterfield and Johnson. Spot on. The extra doubts are that when he arrived Hughes became a fringe player, Butterfield a regular, young guns kept out of the team, and Bent and Baird were the first players publicly rewarded with extensions (for whatever reason). And now the top two gone, one for a pittance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EssendonRam Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 7 hours ago, metalsheep02 said: Saul, I like a lot of what you post on here but I can't agree on this one. 12 months ago you could have constructed exactly the same argument in support of Nigel Pearson 'he got Leicester City up', 'look at what Ranieri did with Pearson's team' and there were people on here making exactly the same sort of arguments around 'give him time' and probably even some defending the Martin loan. In your analysis of the Rowett at B'rum vs Derby over the same period you have not mentioned that during that period they had one manager and we had five, I am sure that impacted on performances (Burton away last season has even been quoted by Mel Morris. I don't doubt that we should support the club but I also feel that a supporter has the right to challenge appropriately if they feel a change is not for the better - rather than blindly trust that it will all work out well. I feel quite confident that Rowett will have a positive impact but I am not willing to simply offer blind support if I disagree with a decision he has taken. I don't buy this 'need a new challenge / lure of premier league too great' stuff that we have been fed over the Hughes transfer. That could easily be translated as Rowett being unable to create a compelling vision of the future at Derby with the result that he (and possibly others) didn't see a strong enough reason to stay and fight for the club. I honestly don't know how anyone could argue that another season of Championship football wasn't a season too long for Will Hughes in terms of his career advancement; for mine, the only argument is whether the season just gone was a season too long. Nor - if he lost faith in Derby's immediate future - is that necessarily due to any failings of Rowett. If we're entirely honest about it, it must be difficult for him to accept any "just one more season" reassurances after so many u-turns in direction over recent years. Like many, I query the sale price but can see the logic for Will of going to a Watford, rather than a Liverpool for a bench position. Perhaps some sort of veto was afforded Will in extending his contract? Hopefully, Will stars and, despite his valiant efforts, Watford get relegated as Derby get promoted, triggering a buy back clause? Hopefully.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Difference between now and a year ago is we've currently got a disjointed squad needing a trim and rebuild. If hypothetically we'd got Nigel Pearson in for the job we've currently need doing I think he'd do a lot better. A year ago we had team that played attractive football but needed a but more consistently to get over the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andicis Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I didn't want the appointment of Rowett, but now he's here I'll support him. That being said, I won't give him just blind faith. I'll support his actions, and yet reserve my right to criticise decisions he makes that I don't agree with, same as I will praise the positive decisions he makes. It should never be the case of choosing between the two. I certainly don't agree with the sale of Hughes, or potentially Ince or Keogh. However, if all of those moves happen then it is done. Sure, I'll criticise him, but I'll also support him to do the best he can for Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, RadioactiveWaste said: Difference between now and a year ago is we've currently got a disjointed squad needing a trim and rebuild. If hypothetically we'd got Nigel Pearson in for the job we've currently need doing I think he'd do a lot better. Ha ha ha! Has the weekend started early for you? Pearson was utterly clueless, he'd have ended up a combo of Tommy Doc and Paul Jewell. It would have been a nightmare and relegation would have been the result. Unless that's where you think we should rebuild from... As for selling Hughes and Ince - they want Prem football and we can't give it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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