Derby County v Hull City

[The Arch Deacon]

1 hour ago, BarrowRam said:

Can't  belive  our performance  today. We were poor all over the park. If we could of kept it to 2-0 we may of had a chance. But 3-0 no chance. Wassall didn't  have a clue. Hope Tuesday we can play with a bit more belief and passion. Let's face it we've nothing to  loose now.

I agree with that. But another sign of naive management. It was clear that today was not gonna happen for Derby. At 2 nil and with 5 or 10 minutes to go, an experienced hand would have thought lets get this to full time with still something to play for in the 2nd leg. On no accounts concede a third FFS! But your man went to a 4-2-4. The 3rd was inevitable. Game over. Bruce 3 Waffle 0. 

[Bris Vegas]

1 hour ago, The Arch Deacon said:

A Tigers fan here that's posted previously and has more than a passing interest in Derby.

Warren, you're absolutely bang on with your assessment. I also picked up that most wanted BJ straight back in the team ahead of JB simply cos his most recent performance was decent despite being garbage for 90% of the season.

I have felt throughout that this fixture was not about Hull v Derby but Bruce v Wassall. That's why the previous results between the two counted for nowt! And in that respect it was man v boy. Way too much nouse, although I accept he is ugly and fat. I couldn't understand the many Derby fans that we're expecting a comfortable Derby win. That said I thought the 3 nil score line flattered us a little. I think 2 would have been about right. The 1st goal was a gift from BJ, the second a fluke and the 3rd a predictable breakaway against a side desperate to get something back.

Allow me to make a few points, bullet stylee!

1. Bruce has been prepping for this from about 10 games out. Once he was fairly sure autos were beyond them he started to rest key players and at the same time give them a strong message that no one was an automatic selection. Elmo, Huddlestone, Hernandez, to name a few, and probably the strongest performers today. He only re-assembled his strongest 11 in the last game or 2 to have them fresh but clicking. 

2. Surely this brings in to question playing Thorne, your only real CDM, in the irrelevant Brighton game.

3. Can you really expect promotion with a back to goal striker significantly slower than most CB's. For me, Tom Ince is better in that role (and I'm no big Ince fan by the way), particularly against our CB's who are not the quickest, but excellent in the air. It just kept being punted up to him and coming straight back.

4. Will Hughes is clearly a talent, but clearly not fully match fit. Bryson clearly bang average, and Johnson clearly crap! But all still selected ahead of JB, who is clearly your most gifted footballer and a regular scorer of worldies inc 2 at the KC.

5. Weimann? Not even on the bench? WTF!!!

You got done today by a team experienced in producing big performances on big days led by a big game manager. It's not all over, in fact it's only half time, but I can't see us not scoring at the KC. In which case you need to score at least 4. Can't see it personally.

I saw several posts offering up a combined Derby Hull 1st 11 which suggested only 2 or 3 City players would make it. I wonder how those same posters would line them up now????

Good luck Tuesday, but I think it's game over. 

 

Hull definitely won the game, both mentally and physically. I was really impressed with your game-management, though not at all surprised as Bruce is a willy old fox.

I agree with a number of points. I said it was stupid to play our best team against Ipswich, a side which will work you and impose a physical presence on you like no other team in the league.

But I disagree with a few others. Martin is a superb CF when you play to his strengths. He's of course going to look absolutely awful if you just pump balls to his head, or want him to run the channels. His lack of pace (it really isn't that bad) isn't a problem if you play to his feet. Players like Martin, Kermorgant and Glenn Murray are all very capable players when you play to their strengths.

Will Hughes seems fine fitness wise, just completely derailed at DM. He's much better as a linking midfielder. The same goes for Bryson, but today he was completely dominated by Hull's midfield largely as a result of Johnson being totally inept (fitness or not, he couldn't even string a pass or two together).

Weimann is average. Wouldn't get anywhere near the starting eleven of another top six side.

Hull thoroughly deserved their win, but it wasn't half handed on a plate to them. Derby are a much better team than the rabble which showed up today, but when you only ever hit top gear once or twice in a season, you simply don't deserve to go up.

[RadioactiveWaste]

25 minutes ago, eustonstation said:

I bet Marcus the Pig would have put Bent on earlier.

I bet Marcus the pig is going to be bacon pretty soon.

[BarrowRam]

10 minutes ago, The Arch Deacon said:

I agree with that. But another sign of naive management. It was clear that today was not gonna happen for Derby. At 2 nil and with 5 or 10 minutes to go, an experienced hand would have thought lets get this to full time with still something to play for in the 2nd leg. On no accounts concede a third FFS! But your man went to a 4-2-4. The 3rd was inevitable. Game over. Bruce 3 Waffle 0. 

I know still can't believe it.

[The Arch Deacon]

11 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Hull definitely won the game, both mentally and physically. I was really impressed with your game-management, though not at all surprised as Bruce is a willy old fox.

I agree with a number of points. I said it was stupid to play our best team against Ipswich, a side which will work you and impose a physical presence on you like no other team in the league.

But I disagree with a few others. Martin is a superb CF when you play to his strengths. He's of course going to look absolutely awful if you just pump balls to his head, or want him to run the channels. His lack of pace (it really isn't that bad) isn't a problem if you play to his feet. Players like Martin, Kermorgant and Glenn Murray are all very capable players when you play to their strengths.

Will Hughes seems fine fitness wise, just completely derailed at DM. He's much better as a linking midfielder. The same goes for Bryson, but today he was completely dominated by Hull's midfield largely as a result of Johnson being totally inept (fitness or not, he couldn't even string a pass or two together).

Weimann is average. Wouldn't get anywhere near the starting eleven of another top six side.

Hull thoroughly deserved their win, but it wasn't half handed on a plate to them. Derby are a much better team than the rabble which showed up today, but when you only ever hit top gear once or twice in a season, you simply don't deserve to go up.

Fair points Mr V. But for all of the CF examples you offer above, I can give you ten times as many where pacey strikers make the difference. Leicester and Vardy has to be the best. Nothing against CM but if you watch today's game again (might not be advisable though) you will see how easy Dawson and Davis had it. The odd occasion that had them stretched was the run from midfield, Ince or Russell. Even if you look back at the two league games the threat was from midfield. I'm sorry, but there's no substitute for pace up front. Herndez had your guys turned inside out frequently for the same reason. 

Let me ask 1 question to a Derby follower. Why does JB start or finish every game on the bench?. What I've seen of Derby he is surely your 1st or 2nd choice midfielder.

[Sexydadbod]

4 minutes ago, The Arch Deacon said:

Fair points Mr V. But for all of the CF examples you offer above, I can give you ten times as many where pacey strikers make the difference. Leicester and Vardy has to be the best. Nothing against CM but if you watch today's game again (might not be advisable though) you will see how easy Dawson and Davis had it. The odd occasion that had them stretched was the run from midfield, Ince or Russell. Even if you look back at the two league games the threat was from midfield. I'm sorry, but there's no substitute for pace up front. Herndez had your guys turned inside out frequently for the same reason. 

Let me ask 1 question to a Derby follower. Why does JB start or finish every game on the bench?. What I've seen of Derby he is surely your 1st or 2nd choice midfielder.

Easy choice to take off it seems. His Mrs(or soon to be Mrs) complained about this on twitter a few months back

[Ambitious]

Although I had to watch the game on a sub-standard stream, it did little to cover the fact that it was another memorable performance by a group of players that simply don't have the heart required when needed. 

The lack of effort, invention and quality was appalling. I know it's important not to make long-term judgements over 90 minutes, but I don't think I could care less if some players handed in a transfer request and never darked this club's door again. 

As it happens, we've got another 90 minutes left to play and it's another chance for the players to yet humiliate themselves further - let's see what they can do. 

[The Arch Deacon]

I have a question. When did this "CDM" position become a staple diet within team formation. And just how does that look on the strategy board. Presumably 4-1-4-1? Or is it 4-1-2-2-1.? Or is it 4-1-3-2? Or is it........u get my point. What happened to the good old 4-4-2? Alright, if you have a midfielder who's natural game is slightly deeper and linking defence to midfield to attack, then fine. And clearly that's what GT does for Derby and clearly for the most part it works. But surely, if he's crocked, you change formation rather than ask a player to play out of his normal position. Hull have no CDM as such. They have 4 men across midfield. When we lose the ball they all defend, when they have the ball they all attack. Simplesk! Don't you pick a formation to suit your team rather than the other way round? Isn't that basic management? 

[Bris Vegas]

59 minutes ago, The Arch Deacon said:

I have a question. When did this "CDM" position become a staple diet within team formation. And just how does that look on the strategy board. Presumably 4-1-4-1? Or is it 4-1-2-2-1.? Or is it 4-1-3-2? Or is it........u get my point. What happened to the good old 4-4-2? Alright, if you have a midfielder who's natural game is slightly deeper and linking defence to midfield to attack, then fine. And clearly that's what GT does for Derby and clearly for the most part it works. But surely, if he's crocked, you change formation rather than ask a player to play out of his normal position. Hull have no CDM as such. They have 4 men across midfield. When we lose the ball they all defend, when they have the ball they all attack. Simplesk! Don't you pick a formation to suit your team rather than the other way round? Isn't that basic management? 

Thing is, the 4-3-3 was originally moulded somewhat in Clough's latter days and followed through by Steve McClaren. It worked as it got the best out of the players we had at the time.

Martin as a lone CF playing as a pivot was key to this success. The likes of Bryson, Hughes, Thorne (previously Eustace) are/were all tailor-made to play in a 4-3-3 as it naturally gets the best out of them.

And at the time we had Ward and Russell, who despite starting as strikers earlier in their careers, began to featire in wide forward roles for us and ultimately performed better.

4-3-3 was perfect for our squad, 4-4-2 wasn't and if we changed to a 4-4-2 now we'd have to re-shape pretty much the whole squad. Bryson, Hughes, Martin, Thorne... It just won't suit them.

We still have the basis of a pretty decent squad. I mean, the 4-3-3 under McClaren gave us our best team since Jim Smith's days. We were massively unlucky not to go up in 2013/14. 4-3-3 had us top of the league at Christmas time in the following two seasons, but either injuries or mad decisions crippled us.

The spine is key for our formation. The lack of a proper replacement/competition for Thorne/Martin has been evident for the past two years. Our embarrassment of a recruitment team has been so inept in their jobs that they couldn't see how basic the solution to our problems were.

Instead of going out and bringing in a Kermorgant, a Joey Barton (or another holding midfielder to rival Thorne) and a top creatve wide man like Knockeart, they instead blew £20m on players that either don't fit the system or are simply not good enough for a team fighting promotion.

Bent just doesn't work as a lone forward, and in reality is fairly average anyway. Weimann is a striker who is pretty average playing out wide. Blackman is just a poor footballer. Baird was pointless. Alex Pearce added nothing. Camara was brought in as a winger in a 4-4-2, and seemingly hasn't featured. Bradley Johnson posseses such little technical ability he doesn't suit our passing game a jot, and Jacob Butterfield while good isn't worth £4m. Shackell, while solid defensively, doens't suit a team looking to play the ball out from the back so another questionable £3m there...

[The Arch Deacon]

6 minutes ago, Bris Vegas said:

Thing is, the 4-3-3 was originally moulded somewhat in Clough's latter days and followed through by Steve McClaren. It worked as it got the best out of the players we had at the time.

Martin as a lone CF playing as a pivot was key to this success. The likes of Bryson, Hughes, Thorne (previously Eustace) are/were all tailor-made to play in a 4-3-3 as it naturally gets the best out of them.

And at the time we had Ward and Russell, who despite starting as strikers earlier in their careers, began to featire in wide forward roles for us and ultimately performed better.

4-3-3 was perfect for our squad, 4-4-2 wasn't and if we changed to a 4-4-2 now we'd have to re-shape pretty much the whole squad. Bryson, Hughes, Martin, Thorne... It just won't suit them.

We still have the basis of a pretty decent squad. I mean, the 4-3-3 under McClaren gave us our best team since Jim Smith's days. We were massively unlucky not to go up in 2013/14. 4-3-3 had us top of the league at Christmas time in the following two seasons, but either injuries or mad decisions crippled us.

The spine is key for our formation. The lack of a proper replacement/competition for Thorne/Martin has been evident for the past two years. Our embarrassment of a recruitment team has been so inept in their jobs that they couldn't see how basic the solution to our problems were.

Instead of going out and bringing in a Kermorgant, a Joey Barton (or another holding midfielder to rival Thorne) and a top creatve wide man like Knockeart, they instead blew £20m on players that either don't fit the system or are simply not good enough for a team fighting promotion.

Bent just doesn't work as a lone forward, and in reality is fairly average anyway. Weimann is a striker who is pretty average playing out wide. Blackman is just a poor footballer. Baird was pointless. Alex Pearce added nothing. Camara was brought in as a winger in a 4-4-2, and seemingly hasn't featured. Bradley Johnson posseses such little technical ability he doesn't suit our passing game a jot, and Jacob Butterfield while good isn't worth £4m. Shackell, while solid defensively, doens't suit a team looking to play the ball out from the back so another questionable £3m there...

Take your point. But still, if you lose your only natural CDM, then surely the formation changes. No business of mine, but I'd have gone with this

                               Carson

christie.       Keogh.         Shackel.          Olson

bryson.    Hughes.          Butterfield.        Russell/weiman

.                         Ince

.                               Martin/Blackman

[Rampage]

We lost the game. Not the end of the world. We are not ready to go up and stay up. Mel, Sam and the rest have done their best. We have a game on tuesday that is unrealistic to win but we need to regroup and give it a good go. We are Derby fans through and through. Time to lick our wounds and to start to plan for next year. The Club is not in debt, we have great facilities and a long history. This is not a dark day. We made it to the Play Offs and we were soundly defeated by a team that was in the Premiership last year. Some players were not fit after injury, some had to play outside their best position and some were marked out of the game. It felt like we were playing against an experienced Premiership team. They were well ahead of us in strength and know how. We will probably take some stick from fans from clubs who did not make the Play Offs. We can take it. We made the Play Offs and we did not make the Premietrship.

 Time to start thinking positive again. We are Derby County. COME ON YOU RAMS.

[WharfedaleRam]

10 hours ago, The Arch Deacon said:

So which of our midfield would you have him ahead of? Elmo? Huddlestone? Livermore? Or Snodgrass? I rest my case! 

All of them! Remember, Bryson tore you apart in our league encounter at the IPro. 

[Anon]

6 hours ago, The Arch Deacon said:

Take your point. But still, if you lose your only natural CDM, then surely the formation changes. No business of mine, but I'd have gone with this

                               Carson

christie.       Keogh.         Shackel.          Olson

bryson.    Hughes.          Butterfield.        Russell/weiman

.                         Ince

.                               Martin/Blackman

Bryson got played out of position on the right quite often by Clough. It wasn't particularly effective. The very fact that you'd even consider putting Blackman up top should lead to you being committed.

[cloughie]

You guys are downbeat, but you will get over it.  But imagine my problems ......

I live in Hull

My wife is a Hull fan and season ticket holder, went to Wembley etc etc.

Her entire family, all our friends etc. are city fans.   One of my best mates  used to play for Hull City.

I got back from the game and have had a steady stream of calls/mails/messages that are either downright gloating or smugly polite.

Short of Lazarus being brought in as CDM, I can only imagine another day of gut wrenching crapola on Tuesday.  One of my wifes friends kindly offered to give up their ticket so that I could go with them. Am I glad I turned that down.....

In football terms, this isn't as bad as Wembley, but for the next couple of weeks, its sure gonna feel like it.

The missus has just asked if I would like to get all our friends round for a late sunday lunch.  I love her dearly, but told her to *&!* off.

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, cloughie said:

You guys are downbeat, but you will get over it.  But imagine my problems ......

I live in Hull

My wife is a Hull fan and season ticket holder, went to Wembley etc etc.

Her entire family, all our friends etc. are city fans.   One of my best mates  used to play for Hull City.

I got back from the game and have had a steady stream of calls/mails/messages that are either downright gloating or smugly polite.

Short of Lazarus being brought in as CDM, I can only imagine another day of gut wrenching crapola on Tuesday.  One of my wifes friends kindly offered to give up their ticket so that I could go with them. Am I glad I turned that down.....

In football terms, this isn't as bad as Wembley, but for the next couple of weeks, its sure gonna feel like it.

The missus has just asked if I would like to get all our friends round for a late sunday lunch.  I love her dearly, but told her to *&!* off.

At least after Wembley we were all galvanised, brought together by a sense of injustice and had just watched our best season for many years.

After yesterday the club feels broken.

A team of players that didn't really seem interested and fans who have spent half a season sniping at each other.

Roll on August.

[BarrowRam]

15 minutes ago, cloughie said:

You guys are downbeat, but you will get over it.  But imagine my problems ......

I live in Hull

My wife is a Hull fan and season ticket holder, went to Wembley etc etc.

Her entire family, all our friends etc. are city fans.   One of my best mates  used to play for Hull City.

I got back from the game and have had a steady stream of calls/mails/messages that are either downright gloating or smugly polite.

Short of Lazarus being brought in as CDM, I can only imagine another day of gut wrenching crapola on Tuesday.  One of my wifes friends kindly offered to give up their ticket so that I could go with them. Am I glad I turned that down.....

In football terms, this isn't as bad as Wembley, but for the next couple of weeks, its sure gonna feel like it.

The missus has just asked if I would like to get all our friends round for a late sunday lunch.  I love her dearly, but told her to *&!* off.

You poor poor man. 

[unclej]

On the pitch:  No pattern of play.  Little passion.  Poor ball control.  Lack of concentration (90 minute goal).  Over-hitting passes.  Missing tackles.  No creative attacking. Caught in possession. Repeating old frailties (Shackle own goal at Burnley – ducking out of a header).  Unforced errors. Atrocious goalkeeping (two 20-yard goals conceded etc) etc etc.

Off the Pitch:  Mr Big (I’m in charge) Morris - “Promotion to the Premiership is not a priority this season”  - (compare with attitude of the Owls on Friday Night).  Presence of Darren Wassall on the touchline (Arms permanently folded across his chest – indicating insecurity), Not one single signal or direction to team on the pitch in 90 minutes (cf Slavan Bilic – v – United last week and Jurgen Klopp all season).

The worse game of the season for Derby, and that is saying something. They clearly didn't want it and thank god we were subjected to this display in Derby rather than dragging ourselves off the London again to watch it there.

Off to Hull on Tuesday to watch Will Hughes.

[PistoldPete2]

12 hours ago, The Arch Deacon said:

A Tigers fan here that's posted previously and has more than a passing interest in Derby.

Warren, you're absolutely bang on with your assessment. I also picked up that most wanted BJ straight back in the team ahead of JB simply cos his most recent performance was decent despite being garbage for 90% of the season.

I have felt throughout that this fixture was not about Hull v Derby but Bruce v Wassall. That's why the previous results between the two counted for nowt! And in that respect it was man v boy. Way too much nouse, although I accept he is ugly and fat. I couldn't understand the many Derby fans that we're expecting a comfortable Derby win. That said I thought the 3 nil score line flattered us a little. I think 2 would have been about right. The 1st goal was a gift from BJ, the second a fluke and the 3rd a predictable breakaway against a side desperate to get something back.

Allow me to make a few points, bullet stylee!

1. Bruce has been prepping for this from about 10 games out. Once he was fairly sure autos were beyond them he started to rest key players and at the same time give them a strong message that no one was an automatic selection. Elmo, Huddlestone, Hernandez, to name a few, and probably the strongest performers today. He only re-assembled his strongest 11 in the last game or 2 to have them fresh but clicking. 

2. Surely this brings in to question playing Thorne, your only real CDM, in the irrelevant Brighton game.

3. Can you really expect promotion with a back to goal striker significantly slower than most CB's. For me, Tom Ince is better in that role (and I'm no big Ince fan by the way), particularly against our CB's who are not the quickest, but excellent in the air. It just kept being punted up to him and coming straight back.

4. Will Hughes is clearly a talent, but clearly not fully match fit. Bryson clearly bang average, and Johnson clearly crap! But all still selected ahead of JB, who is clearly your most gifted footballer and a regular scorer of worldies inc 2 at the KC.

5. Weimann? Not even on the bench? WTF!!!

You got done today by a team experienced in producing big performances on big days led by a big game manager. It's not all over, in fact it's only half time, but I can't see us not scoring at the KC. In which case you need to score at least 4. Can't see it personally.

I saw several posts offering up a combined Derby Hull 1st 11 which suggested only 2 or 3 City players would make it. I wonder how those same posters would line them up now????

Good luck Tuesday, but I think it's game over. 

 

Thanks for your thoughts... I think my own preference for Johnson in midfield was not because of his previous game v Hull, but because of Thornes injury. A midfield of Bryson Hughes and Butterfield is too lightweight. But as it turned out Johnson was terrible either not fit or back to being hopelessly out of form.   Weve had real fitness problems in midfield  Thorne and his direct replacement Hanson injured, Hughes and Bryson only just getting back from injury, and Johnson and Hendrick also missing until Saturday. Carrying too may injuries for too long and it showed big time. But that doesnt excuse the failing elsewhere we had problems all over the pitch an dtime for a rebuild in the summer .  

[The Arch Deacon]

2 hours ago, WharfedaleRam said:

All of them! Remember, Bryson tore you apart in our league encounter at the IPro. 

Errrrmmmm..........of course you would Wharfey.........that's right.......he's brilliant.........do you want a cup of tea??????

Somebody keep him talking, I'll call doctor!!!!!!!

 

[ariotofmyown]

Great day yesterday. Was running late, got stuck in traffic, couldn't park, that game, parking ticket for me but not lots of similar offenders.

Bit bored of the cliched moan of our players didn't try/didn't want it. It didn't happen for us in a big way, but why do people read that as not caring?

Lots of people moaning that we were hoofing it up to Martin. In the early part of the game, I thought Martin was winning lots vs Dawson and Davis, even getting Dawson (very harshly) booked. Hull were great at stopping our normal play, so think we should have started hoofing it a bit more. That's proper hoofing, not high chipped passing.

We needed Hughes at CDM as he can look to control the game. We also need him in the advance position as he is the only one who can makes things happen there (see early on when he almost got Johnson in after some neat play). We need Thorne, Hughes and Martin all fit to beat good teams. We imploded last season as Thorne, Eustace and Omar all got injured, plus obviously Martin. Some poor recruitment means we still only have Hanson as backup for Thorne and no one for Martin.

Hull were also excellent yesterday. Livermore and Hudds were great in the Prem season before last. Diame won games for West Ham by himself. Right back looked great player. Defence is solid. As Bris enjoyed saying, best team in the league on their day. And yesterday was their day. I hope they go up to give us a better chance next season.

Very little chance of us going through, but no fear can be occasionally a dangerous thing. They have been inconsistent. If we mix things up and get an earlyish goal we could yet scare them.