Sparkle

3 hours ago, Coconut's Beard said:

The only place I can see anyone try to explain it (in a very confusing manner) is Hull Daily Mail, based on the punishment Birmingham, were given and how it was worked out.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/efl-financial-fair-play-explained-2688083

In summary:

Between 2015 & 2018 Birmingham recorded a P&S loss which must have been around £48m and were due to be deducted 12 points.

Being less than £2m over the £39m allowable losses would have reduced their penalty by 9 points (to 3)
Being 'just under £10m' over the £39m allowable losses reduced their penalty by 5 points (to 7)
Being £15m+ over the allowable losses doesn't reduce your penalty at all

Figures in between are guesswork, but Mel Morris apparently said that a £4m breach would mean a 4 point penalty (which makes sense)

If we don't come to an agreement with the EFL and it goes to the disciplinary commission it will be up to them to "judge how far and how flagrantly a club has disregarded the rules, and punish accordingly"

The disciplinary commission decided in the Birmimgham case that by quickly admitting their breach they saved themselves another point (down to 6) - not something we would benefit from.

The disciplinary commission didn't believe their claims of contrition though, due to their loss of over £20m from increased spending the following season (taking it back up to 9). There's also the matter of Birmingham breaking a transfer embargo by paying £2m for Kristian Pedersen in 2018 - all of that only resulted in 3 extra points being added to their penalty.

 

...so what do people should we be looking at if it went to a disciplinary panel vs the EFL trying to get us to agree to 9 points?

Birmingham also agreed to it because they knew that it couldn’t relegate them because of its timing - it’s all farcical how it’s implemented to suit some clubs 

5 hours ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

I might be going mad, but I really do think we will get some if not all of the 12 points back.

1. That article in the sun (I know it's the sun) on how the EFL are looking at changing the rules on administration. Essentially so that any unsuccessful appeals will be met with a further 6 point deduction.

It seems to me that the EFL are very worried (they can't appeal the outcome either way) that we have a very strong case. They also know that if we do get this decision overturned and points back this will set a precedent. Other clubs in the championship will see this and enter administration themselves knowing that they would also not get a points deduction. By threatening them with a further 6 points for an unsuccessful appeal they are hoping this would deter any other club from entering administration.

2. The administrators were here a good few weeks before lodging the appeal. It's not like they've come in and done it instantly. They have clearly gone through the accounts with a fine toothcomb and spoke to lawyers before deciding to move forward with the appeal. They clearly feel we have a strong case.

3. As we all know money is scarce. Yet the administrators have spent around £300k on this appeal. If for one second they thought that there was no chance at all of being successful with it, they wouldn't have done it.

 

If we haven’t got a case then I would like to see an example of one that has? 
hopefully the independent panel is exactly that and I don’t care about the behaviour of other clubs and why on earth would a club want to voluntarily go into Administration it’s far to dangerous.

if we are granted a reduced point penalty or no penalty it’s because we have a heck of a case 

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Hmm good question.

Back in 2016?

 

It was still offside even today - Derby never get those helpful decisions 

It is supposed to be entertaining isn’t it ? - all time wasting should be added on - tickets are expensive enough without paying to watch people feign injury. I can watch TV for that 

3 minutes ago, Yani P said:

This entire drama just highlights how bitter, vindictive and inept the EFL are. Looking to change their own rules to try and stop anyone else having the right to appeal when they may have a valid case. I wonder if there is any option to take this joke organisation before CAS?

A rich individual who used to be involved in a football club could probably find a few good reasons to take the EFL to a real court with a real judge if you know what I mean 

3 minutes ago, Norwichram2 said:

For what it's worth if Nixon is right (if) I reckon the EFL is in a tizzy because they believed the 12 points to be the nearest to automatic they could get. They now face the real prospect imo of the sanction being reduced and, get this, they can't appeal as things stand. Serves em right!

Hopefully the appeal penal are truly independent and our case is delivered appropriately 

I would still like to know how to EFL considers an appeal to administration to be able to be successful - give us some examples please EFL - oh wait a minute you are apparently intimating that there isn’t a scenario. 

17 hours ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Why did the appeal rule not need revoking after Wigan's attempt?

You know the real reason don’t you! 

They have absolutely no one else to show on TV 

Does he want to play for us during his season break 12 weeks of a positive Russell could help

                      Roos

byrne  Jagielka Davies Buchanan 

               Bird   Knight 

                     Sibley 

       Baldock CKR  Lawrence 

Barnsley have sacked their manager it seems - maybe a good thing maybe not 

38 minutes ago, David said:

Extra leg room, baggage, soon adds up. Strangely today I've finally had a response on twitter and a refund is in process.

Booked Mallorca for last October, we cancelled due to Covid, used a voucher to book for Dublin, in February, flights cancelled, tried to get a refund, nothing for months. Used the voucher to book Almeria to see my Dad, had to cancel that so rebooked for Hamburg, flights cancelled.

Been a mess, each time charged us extras for the leg room and baggage despite the vouchers covering the cost, they only cover the flight cost apparently.

All that must teach you not to buy a ticket that finances Middlesbrough FC in the future 

5 hours ago, Indy said:

With my optimistic head on, I think this looks like the EFL putting something in place to announce the same time as losing the appeal so they can continue their feeble narrative of being in charge and/or competent. 

They are just being mardy - just a vindictive body with little respect given by it’s members

6 hours ago, hintonsboots said:

should have extra penalties in future if people try to take a chance by getting it reduced ... that is IN FUTURE and not the Derby case.

I wouldn’t describe it as taking a chance. Each potential appeal will be looked at by the respective clubs legal advisors before deciding on the potential success of taking it to an independent panel ? If the EFL are once again changing the rules then I would suspect Derby have a more than 50% chance of overturning the 12 point penalty.

Dam straight we have a very decent chance of overturning the points deduction - the whole country was in lockdown not to mention even the EFL acknowledged that clubs have no cash coming in which is why they expended the P&S 3 year period to a four year period and if that’s not saying clubs income has been wrecked then I don’t know what is? 

7 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

That’s actually quite disgraceful that the EFL wants to stop clubs from appealing a decision that they feel is unjust - it’s a similar system used in a far left or far right country 

Roos - ok 

Bryne - had a big tall one on him again but he never received any decent ball from our other players 

Jagielka - much busier 

Davies - leading scorer - enough said 

Forsyth - looked off the pace 

Shinnie - shame about the booking 

Bird - tried to get us moving forward 

Morrison - a cut price Butterfield - can’t he see the simple pass to put Bryne through time and time again 

Jozwiak - one decent cut back but that was it 

Sibley - one chance to shoot first time but didn’t nothing else 

Lawrence - did nothing today for me 

subs - Richards - gave us some presence on the pitch 

Baldock - at least he was trying but never got close to the ball

Ebosele - he runs at people and things happen 

We lost and deserved to - next game start with Richards and Stretton together for me and I hope knight is fit to replace the suspended Shinnie - Morrison isn’t doing anything with the ball offensively in fact he is stopping us currently 

Again didn’t do anything mind you the ball was never played in that direction either 

56 minutes ago, Carl Sagan said:

A win here and that's 6 games unbeaten but also 10 points from that time. It would be a massive fillip. Lose and it's relegation form regardless of a points deduction. Yet another draw and it's relegation form with the points deduction.

Wins are massive. Right now they're so important so we can build confidence and close the gap. At what point do we take a few more risks to go for 3 points instead of just the 1?

Start Colin but also have Stretton on the bench. It seems weird he's been relegated too the U23s when we don't have a fit centre forward apart from him.

We start to take risks when we have more players likely to score goals which probably means late January - currently our defenders are doing a fine job defending and scoring one or two - time for Byrne to score for the Rams 

On 23/10/2021 at 17:33, roboto said:

Another draw. Whatever…

Every point counts especially when scoring goals is rather difficult 

It would be nice if we actually knew what on earth the legal action is about? And Middlesbrough for that matter.

the EFL could actually nail this stone dead if they said that no point deductions are required as Derby amortisation was perfectly legal but not usual - they could even hand down a suspended points deduction which we would probably accept just to move on. 

1 hour ago, jono said:

The thing that interests me is when it’s all done and dusted what can we actually do within P and S. No matter who we get, this league is handicapped. I say that because it isn’t a level playing field while parachute payments exist. You can’t buy the league because relegated clubs have booked most of the seats at the top. And if you try and push in, you get penalised

ok so we are allowed to lose 39 million over 3 years. I seriously doubt that any even mildly ambitious none parachute club can actually make much profit and owners can’t inject capital at will 

At our best we had an income of 30 million PA Then we can be subbed 13 million PA ..(assuming generous owner) so total dosh technically available maxes out at   43 million 

Can we run the club on that ? . Not a penny more .. ever ! 

So … what are the costs of running a new lean mean DCFC ? Including transfer budget. 

15 players at 500 k PA = 7.5 million 

20 players at 250 k PA = 5.0 million 

Other staff dunno .. let’s say 1.5 million 

Rent  = let’s say 3% of Mels 80 million = 2.5 million 

That’s 16 million ish  .. now there’s a factor you could add for all other costs .. energy, bus rates, policing, maintenance, professional services, it’s difficult to guess because wages are so top heavy in football but I can’t help feeling it’s going to be close to double the wages and venue costs

My conclusion is that post Covid wages and transfer fees will be more manageable .. If we get the right sponsorship deals, a generous owner and crowds return to normal then we could be sustainable and maybe be able to sign a decent player or 2 each year. 

 

 

Yep wages and transfer fees will be drastically down in the championship so if you can build a team from the EFL and left over premiership players you have a chance. As you rightly say parachute teams have the huge advantage of having players already and for a few pounds more can easily outbid non parachute clubs in terms of recruitment and wages so it’s very tough. You just have to hope that the parachute teams are completely badly run in terms of finances, management and naff/ injured players to not go up inside of two years ( ie Stoke currently) 

in terms of ourself - we would need forwards and central defenders long term which would be very costly 

Am I the only one who is quite pleased that someone wants to save us and has to money to do so? 

1 minute ago, Rampage said:

Just believe.

I do but there are too many outside parties trying to do us down - sad really 

7 minutes ago, Rampage said:

Get Jags first.

Need to be out of an embargo first which is rather difficult it seems 

Well the main thing is that there are people who actually want to buy us - in this football climate that’s a mightily impressive result