Transfer rumours

[Marriot Ram99]

Not spending too much is not the same as being allergic to spending money there is a balance. We have spent some so far but not much especially when you consider sky revenue + sell ons. Would like to see us spend 2-3 mill if the right attacker becomes available at a decent age or spread that between 2 permenant signings. If you spend peanuts you are destined to mediocrity and the season after this one wont be any easier if we have a load of loans + players like Fozzy, Collins and Bradley to replace. Never would factor in January is an awful time to buy that is only for an extra player or 2 if things have gone very badly.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, maxjam said:

You can hopefully generate more money from money though if you either invest in your academy or invest in your scouting dept. 

The recent interview with Stephen Pearce and Mo Bobat was very interesting, re. using data to find untapped value in the transfer market.  IIRC Bobat did however say that we wouldn't see the benefits of this new approach in either the current or January transfer windows, so as with the academy and our approach to the Championship we seem to be taking a more considered longer term approach.

Why? I didn't listen to the interview, so don't know how long it takes to use data to find 'untapped value'?

Edited August 18 by RoyMac5

[Tyler Durden]

1 minute ago, maxjam said:

You can hopefully generate more money from money though if you either invest in your academy or invest in your scouting dept. 

The recent interview with Stephen Pearce and Mo Bobat was very interesting, re. using data to find untapped value in the transfer market.  IIRC Bobat did however say that we wouldn't see the benefits of this new approach in either the current or January transfer windows, so as with the academy and our approach to the Championship we seem to be taking a more considered longer term approach.

Agreed but both the academy and scouting costs money.

Which goes back to my original point that to create wealth you have to spend some capital outlay somewhere along the process. Basic economics.

Of course scouting and the academy may be preferred options to capital outlay on transfer fees but it's still money. 

This argument is becoming too binary as it's not just one route of loans vs transfers fees which is the key here. 

I still haven't had an answer as to when DC set the transfer fee budget this summer he knew he would be getting incomings from sell on clauses or this was a bonus windfall which wasn't accounted for. 

[Marriot Ram99]

6 minutes ago, Eoghan1884 said:

Yh true Ebou Adams was absolutely useless after coming in last January. CBT also was essentially a permanent we signed last January was a loan that had to turn permanent. 

I knew someone would say that but that is what 1 decent Jan signing in two years? So not exactly great and January is just a case of if anyone becomes available on loan its a bonus we wont be planning on building the team in January thats what the summer window is for. We have signed numerous s**** players in the winter window over the years.

[Srg]

1 minute ago, Marriot Ram99 said:

I knew someone would say that but that is what 1 decent Jan signing in two years? So not exactly great and January is just a case of if anyone becomes available on loan it’s a bonus we wont be planning on building the team in January thats what the summer window is for. We have signed numerous s**** players in the winter window over the years.

Best way of using the January window to actually build is similar to what we did with CBT. 

[Marriot Ram99]

2 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Agreed but both the academy and scouting costs money.

Which goes back to my original point that to create wealth you have to spend some capital outlay somewhere along the process. Basic economics.

Of course scouting and the academy may be preferred options to capital outlay on transfer fees but it's still money. 

This argument is becoming too binary as it's not just one route of loans vs transfers fees which is the key here. 

I still haven't had an answer as to when DC set the transfer fee budget this summer he knew he would be getting incomings from sell on clauses or this was a bonus windfall which wasn't accounted for. 

Dont think it would have been accounted for as budget would be set just after the end of the season by which point we didnt know Delap was going to Hull or Kellyman and Bogle would move. So we have bonus money.

[Crewton]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

You've skipped over my first point so am guessing you do agree then that you can't create wealth out of nothing which is basic economics.

I think @NottsRam77 might disagree with you about that 😉 but of course it's generally true. I would have thought that the continued support that Clowes is giving to the Academy was evidence of substantial investment in creating value. Had Administration not forced the sale of some of our most promising talent, we'd possibly already have a substantial transfer fund building from the annual £5m-ish investment. Even the realisation of resale add-ons is now boosting the club's funds. Given the apparent pool of talent we now have coming through, that investment could yield huge benefits. That is real investment. I just don't think we're likely to see Clowes being a gambler over and above what he and his family are currently funding.

[Tyler Durden]

2 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I think @NottsRam77 might disagree with you about that 😉 but of course it's generally true. I would have thought that the continued support that Clowes is giving to the Academy was evidence of substantial investment in creating value. Had Administration not forced the sale of some of our most promising talent, we'd possibly already have a substantial transfer fund building from the annual £5m-ish investment. Even the realisation of resale add-ons is now boosting the club's funds. Given the apparent pool of talent we now have coming through, that investment could yield huge benefits. That is real investment. I just don't think we're likely to see Clowes being a gambler over and above what he and his family are currently funding.

Where I'm coming from also is how is the money received from the windfalls of player sell on clauses being triggered this summer being reinvested?

It would appear that it's not in the form of transfer fees, however modest they might be. But instead loan fees which goes back to my original point 

Or even worse the monies are being used to pay for the day to day running of the club. 

[maxjam]

12 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Why? I didn't listen to the interview, so don't know how long it takes to use data to find 'untapped value'?

TBH I can't remember, without listening to it again I'm not even sure if it was asked why. 

As a general answer, I'd figure it takes time to get the systems set up and start producing actionable data.

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Where I'm coming from also is how is the money received from the windfalls of player sell on clauses being triggered this summer being reinvested?

We don't know that it is. Some expect it to be, some assume it will be, but by the same token, some might suspect it's simply been swallowed up in the £90 million black hole the owner took on.

[Crewton]

4 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Where I'm coming from also is how is the money received from the windfalls of player sell on clauses being triggered this summer being reinvested?

It would appear that it's not in the form of transfer fees, however modest they might be. But instead loan fees which goes back to my original point 

Or even worse the monies are being used to pay for the day to day running of the club. 

Why would that be "worse still"? Do you think that the club is self-funding?

[Tyler Durden]

3 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Why would that be "worse still"? Do you think that the club is self-funding?

I have no idea where the money is being allocated to hence my question 

[maxjam]

11 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Agreed but both the academy and scouting costs money.

Which goes back to my original point that to create wealth you have to spend some capital outlay somewhere along the process. Basic economics.

Of course scouting and the academy may be preferred options to capital outlay on transfer fees but it's still money. 

This argument is becoming too binary as it's not just one route of loans vs transfers fees which is the key here. 

I still haven't had an answer as to when DC set the transfer fee budget this summer he knew he would be getting incomings from sell on clauses or this was a bonus windfall which wasn't accounted for. 

I think we're all in agreement on here that we aren't in a position to spend £4m a piece on 2 strikers like Boro have done.  Coming up from Lg1 also meant that we needed 12 players (as PW stated) rather than 4 or 5 like other Championship clubs - which means if our budget was comparable it had to be stretched much thinner. 

PW has also stated that he wants to bring in 1st team starters, which is admirable as we don't want to fill the squad with players of similar/lesser quality than we have already just for the sake of it.  Finding players that will come for both a sensible transfer fee and wage is obviously proving difficult and you can see the frustration in PWs face when asked about any potential incomings.

I personally think a bit of realism is needed from the fanbase, investing in the academy and scouting dept is low risk compared to dropping £millions on players with potentially glass knees, but obviously much longer term.  If we can survive with loans and older freebies until we fill the squad out with younger Championship quality players thats a long term plan I can get behind - I don't see that as a binary choice, more long term evolution of the squad given our budget.

And talking of budget, did DC know about any potential sell on clauses?  I would imagine so.  Still doesn't mean you can bring the right players in for the right fee and right wage.  Hopefully, it does mean that we have cash in the bank to be able to move when one does become available.

[nottingram]

28 minutes ago, Crewton said:

You've highlighted the pitfalls of signing even young players for substantial fees : something like £17m was spent on Thorne, Bielek and Joswiak alone for relatively little return on the pitch and perhaps as little as £2m return in transfer fees.

Speculation is only tenable if (a) it pays off by giving excellent returns on the pitch and/or in the transfer market or (b) you can afford to lose what you're speculating with.

I don't think Clowes is in that position.

Don’t disagree at all (although Jozwiak was just a bad signing, no element of bad luck there really).

But to some degree I think it could be argued there has to be an element of trust in the people you’ve employed. If you trust your recruitment staff, your medical staff and your coaching staff clearly those risks are reduced. 

I think we’ve taken a decent stab at it with Kenzo and JWZ this summer, to be fair. I think Coventry are almost the model club to look at, they’re a relative big hitter at this level now, around half of that arising from Hamer who they bought in their first window back up here. Easy to forget, and I’ve been guilty of it, they were in a relegation scrap that season. 

Just think it’s overly simplistic to say speculating to accumulate got us into this mess. Buying crap old players for big fees did. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

 I'd have thought yesterday might have illustrated the class gap, if nothing else, but clearly not.

The class gap between David Clowes and that Curly Sue twonk needs no illustration 👍

[Rich3478]

47 minutes ago, Marriot Ram99 said:

Not spending too much is not the same as being allergic to spending money there is a balance. We have spent some so far but not much especially when you consider sky revenue + sell ons. Would like to see us spend 2-3 mill if the right attacker becomes available at a decent age or spread that between 2 permenant signings. If you spend peanuts you are destined to mediocrity and the season after this one wont be any easier if we have a load of loans + players like Fozzy, Collins and Bradley to replace. Never would factor in January is an awful time to buy that is only for an extra player or 2 if things have gone very badly.

Agree, think Thomas Asante left west Brom for £2.5m. That’s the sort of level signing we need to make 

[Srg]

10 minutes ago, Rich3478 said:

Agree, think Thomas Asante left west Brom for £2.5m. That’s the sort of level signing we need to make 

He signed for West Brom from Salford for £300k. That’s the signing we need to be making. 

[RoyMac5]

42 minutes ago, maxjam said:

TBH I can't remember, without listening to it again I'm not even sure if it was asked why. 

As a general answer, I'd figure it takes time to get the systems set up and start producing actionable data.

Thanks, just seems odd, unless we've not bought them their laptops yet. 😄 They've been here since last November.

[maxjam]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Thanks, just seems odd, unless we've not bought them their laptops yet. 😄 They've been here since last November.

Its only a 45m listen, well worth the time for anyone that wants to know whats going on behind the scenes a bit re. scouting/buying players

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0jhbrx2

[RoyMac5]

38 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I think we're all in agreement on here that we aren't in a position to spend £4m a piece on 2 strikers like Boro have done.  Coming up from Lg1 also meant that we needed 12 players (as PW stated) rather than 4 or 5 like other Championship clubs - which means if our budget was comparable it had to be stretched much thinner...

Didn't Warne in League 1 say he wanted to sign players to play in the Championship? 

"...Explaining the type of player he needs, Warne told Rams TV: "I could have signed eight players who could have potentially improved the squad, but it's about getting the very best ones you can.

But we are trying to sign players that don't want to be in this league if that makes sense. We need ones who can play in the league above, ones with experience and a bit of hair on their back ideally."

 

Edited August 18 by RoyMac5