The Real Brian Clough

[ariotofmyown]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/13/liz-truss-book-says-husband-predicted-premiership-would-all-end-in-tears

Noting that the first leadership hustings against Sunak was held at Elland Road, home of Leeds United, in the city where she grew up, Truss writes: “In my speech there, I made reference to Don Revie, the legendary manager of the 1970s Leeds team that had won the league who then went on to manage England.”

Clough, Truss writes, “took over from Revie at the club in 1974. As dramatised in the film The Damned United, Clough tried to shake up the team and get them to play better … the players rebelled and Clough was sacked after just 44 days.

“In the final days of my premiership, I had said to my private secretary, Nick Catsaras: ‘If the Conservative party bin me after six weeks and I’m the Brian Clough of prime ministers, then so be it.’ I lasted 49 days.”

 

 

I guess the only real difference between Clough and Truss is that Brian had major success before and after the period Truss is referring too. I'm not really sure about the preceeding Don Revie success analogy beforehand too.

Maybe Gary Monk might be a better example of a Leeds manager. Ok for a bit, didn't last long at Leeds, then disappeared until the last few weeks.

[Normanton Lad]

"Clough tried to shake up the team and get them to play better".

Leeds were playing well enough without the need to shaking them up. Whenever I chat to Leeds fans they seem to think that Clough was determined to destroy Revie's team. I don't know what he was trying to do. He was still a young man in his 30s when he took over and I think the fact that the Leeds old guard weren't that much younger than him was part of the problem. When I started work age commanded far more respect than it does today. I don't think I would have taken seriously any bosses who were still in their 30s. In fact, I don't think I ever had a boss who wasn't at least in his 40s.

[Crewton]

10 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

"Clough tried to shake up the team and get them to play better".

Leeds were playing well enough without the need to shaking them up. Whenever I chat to Leeds fans they seem to think that Clough was determined to destroy Revie's team. I don't know what he was trying to do. He was still a young man in his 30s when he took over and I think the fact that the Leeds old guard weren't that much younger than him was part of the problem. When I started work age commanded far more respect than it does today. I don't think I would have taken seriously any bosses who were still in their 30s. In fact, I don't think I ever had a boss who wasn't at least in his 40s.

Alexander the Great, Henry V, General James Wolfe - if they're good enough, they're old enough.

[Anon]

11 hours ago, Normanton Lad said:

"Clough tried to shake up the team and get them to play better".

Leeds were playing well enough without the need to shaking them up. Whenever I chat to Leeds fans they seem to think that Clough was determined to destroy Revie's team. I don't know what he was trying to do. He was still a young man in his 30s when he took over and I think the fact that the Leeds old guard weren't that much younger than him was part of the problem. When I started work age commanded far more respect than it does today. I don't think I would have taken seriously any bosses who were still in their 30s. In fact, I don't think I ever had a boss who wasn't at least in his 40s.

Yes, Leeds were playing well enough, but it was a completely different style of football. A style that Clough didn't like and wouldn't have been proud to play as a manager, even if it had continued to bring success. I think there's definitely some truth in Clough wanting to destroy Revie's team, as he could be incredibly petty at times. It only makes me like him more as it's exactly what I'd do to Leeds if given the opportunity. It was a bad match up in general though. The Leeds players were also a petty and small minded bunch who worshipped the ground Revie walked on. They would've undermined any new manager, even if that manager wasn't as abrasive and confrontational as Clough. Also, it's usually harder to win things when you are no longer paying your opponents to lose.

[Wolfie]

I think Truss is selling herself short here.

I don't recall Brian Clough ever opening up new pork markets.

[Stive Pesley]

Clough also didn't get the Leeds job because the club was in turmoil, with everyone sticking the knife into Revie, leading the way for Cloughie to seize the perfect moment simultaneously gain power AND expose himself as someone whose ambition far outweighed his intellect

Revie just left to take the England managers job and Cloughie was a proven winner at Derby

[Normanton Lad]

3 hours ago, Crewton said:

Alexander the Great, Henry V, General James Wolfe - if they're good enough, they're old enough.

There are always exceptions to everything, but Clough's methods would not work on men as old as him. Just as a thought experiment imagine that Jack Charlton had still been at Leeds when Clough took over - he left a year earlier. What do you think he would have done when Clough told the Leeds players they can chuck their medals in the bin? Big Jack would probably have punched Clough. Jack was not much older than players like Giles, Bremner and Cooper. They had seen it all and they would not put up with Clough's abrasive managerial style. Dave Mackay was older than Clough and Clough knew he couldn't talk to Mackay in the same way he talked to the other players.

 

[Normanton Lad]

It’s just occurred to me that we are arguing about something that took place over 50 years ago. This must seem weird and irrelevant to younger posters. Just imagine that this messageboard had been here in 1967 when Clough took over and we were arguing about football events in 1917. I was on the terraces in 1967 and I never heard anyone ever mention anything to do with Derby County before 1945. Perhaps an interest in football history is a recent thing. In the late 1960s even the 1950s seemed in the distant past.

[Crewton]

9 minutes ago, Normanton Lad said:

There are always exceptions to everything, but Clough's methods would not work on men as old as him. Just as a thought experiment imagine that Jack Charlton had still been at Leeds when Clough took over - he left a year earlier. What do you think he would have done when Clough told the Leeds players they can chuck their medals in the bin? Big Jack would probably have punched Clough. Jack was not much older than players like Giles, Bremner and Cooper. They had seen it all and they would not put up with Clough's abrasive managerial style. Dave Mackay was older than Clough and Clough knew he couldn't talk to Mackay in the same way he talked to the other players.

 

Answered your own question there really. Clough may not have spoken the same way if Charlton was present. Then again, by the time he went to Leeds he was a few years older and allot more successful than when he managed Dave. I think it would take a brave man to second guess how Clough would behave because he was rarely consistent.

All said and done, how he dealt with Leeds squad was a massive error of judgement and hubris. He must surely have realised that very quickly. It wasn't likely to be redeemable either.

[Alph]

Has she ever heard of Paul Jewell?

[Bob The Badger]

On 15/04/2024 at 12:25, Alph said:

Has she ever heard of Paul Jewell?

no

[Stive Pesley]

46 minutes ago, Bob The Badger said:

no

But now she has, she's on it (like a car bonnet)

[WharfedaleRam]

32 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said:

But now she has, she's on it (like a car bonnet)

Liz Truss on a car bonnet? Give over, I've just had me lunch!

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Bob The Badger said:

no

It's a shame he wasn't given more time. He inherited a mess and in my opinion should have been given more time. 

I've seen the movie about Brian Clough. I'm downloading the Paul Jewell one. 

[TimRam]

Wonder if Taylor joining him at Leeds would have made a difference?

Edited April 16 by TimRam

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

21 minutes ago, Alph said:

It's a shame he wasn't given more time. He inherited a mess and in my opinion should have been given more time. 

I've seen the movie about Brian Clough. I'm downloading the Paul Jewell one. 

 

[Alph]

3 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

 

"Then Paul Jewell" 🤣 

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

38 minutes ago, TimRam said:

Wonder if Taylor joining him at Leeds would have made a difference?

Yes.  Clough on his own was obviously a decent manager but not at the same level. A grossly underrated cog in the machine.   Less so here than other places but still underrated.  He seemed to keep Cloughs more eccentric behaviour in check, certainly after what happened here. 

[Rev]

On 16/04/2024 at 14:01, WharfedaleRam said:

Liz Truss on a car bonnet? Give over, I've just had me lunch!

I think she'd look good on a car bonnet, personally.

 

Especially if the car was doing 80 mph at the time. 

[sage]

I saw Liz Truss at Heathrow Airport a few weeks ago. She was going mad because none of the airlines would sell her a ticket.

They didn't want her anywhere near Business or Economy.