Paul Warne

[jono]

20 hours ago, Nuwtfly said:

Good post and all fair points, but just for the sake of debate...

Paul Warne's record so far for keeping a team in the Championship isn't great, is it? People keep saying "oh but look at the quality of the Rotherham squad"...is our squad looking that healthy at the moment? 

Is it not fair for fans to be a bit concerned about how we'll get on going into this season under him? We do after all only have his previous track record in this division to go by. 

Not saying I think we are in trouble - but just that the reservations (which I think get interpreted as criticism) by some are understandable and definitely not "mental"  

I think it is more than fair to be wary, nervous, hopeful or even a bit gloomy. We are all different. I am hugely worried about recruitment, the power of the parachute clubs, the age of our better players, those players with poor injury records, the need for youngsters to come from the academy. The whole financial structure of the league. To me those are vastly more worrying than our managers actual ability to manage the players and pick a team. 
What grates is the ever ready pitchfork. The seeming desire to relish any difficulties and instantly point the finger at the nominated whipping boy. (and they know who that is before any problems have even surfaced) 

[kevinhectoring]

8 hours ago, Wolfie20 said:

but when views are so entrenched that despite everything nothing will ever change no matter what, isn't it rather pointless trying to have a discussion in those circumstances? 

Perhaps this is what you want to believe, I don’t know.  Anyway, I doubt it’s true of many posters. 

If Warne got us into the PL, he’d be my hero. 

I disliked him for his first season, quite a lot. Now much less. And (this might confuse you): I now think he was probably a good appointment, once the decision was taken that LR should go and a very good appointment from a cultural point of view. But I don’t think he’s the guy we want managing us in the championship. 
 

I hope he’ll make me change my mind 🙂   If he does, I will haha 

Edited June 13 by kevinhectoring

[Caerphilly Ram]

4 hours ago, May Contain Nuts said:

Think we're talking at cross purposes somewhat. Those terms aren't being used, and nobody is feeling victimised,  because people are 'sharing opposing views'. It's the manner in which their view is rounded on and the unprovoked jibes that are casually and continually slipped into posts. It's the way that even the smallest slight against Warne is pounced on as if someone's said some gross, horrible unfathomably awful thing about him, the way people adding context that does anything other than show fealty to him and the scope of last season's achievement are treated as if they've s*** in his mouth and robbed him of any and all credit. Again see the reaction yesterday, nothing offensive was said but the usual crew just had to jump in to defend his honour, but against what, really?

I disagree  that it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. Even if it was at one stage, it isn't now and hasn't been for quite some time. It remains a tiny fraction of posters who've ever said anything that's genuinely offensive about Warne and the number of 'dissenters' is miniscule. I wouldn't even count myself in their number at present.

Negativity around the team, tactics chances etc is definitely dispiriting but that's par for the course in football discussions. The stuff I was talking about in my post doesn't fall into that category. 

I agree re: Dobbin. Has everything really  except for that final ball, and even then his numbers were pretty good for us, considering.

 

It was the early hours and I couldn’t sleep, on reflection maybe my needy ego just needed validation that I’m not being considered part of a mob or bullying as that’s never my intent. 
 

Anyway, do we know if Warne has WhatsApped any potential new signings into submission yet?! I’d really like a bit of news from the club that isn’t “on this day 57 years ago we signed x player”, “happy birthday to such and such former ram”, “sponsored energy drink post #73”. Would be nice to have something new to discuss.

[Srg]

36 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Perhaps this is what you want to believe, I don’t know.  Anyway, I doubt it’s true of many posters. 

If Warne got us into the PL, he’d be my hero. 

I disliked him for his first season, quite a lot. Now much less. And (this might confuse you): I now think he was probably a good appointment, once the decision was taken that LR should go and a very good appointment from a cultural point of view. But I don’t think he’s the guy we want managing us in the championship. 
 

I hope he’ll make me change my mind 🙂   If he does, I will haha 

That’s all well and good but isn’t that just being a bit Captain Hindsight? Like you’ll be negative about him until proven otherwise, then you’ll say well done but move onto the next doubt?

[Nuwtfly]

7 hours ago, May Contain Nuts said:

It's not really odd though, those terms are being thrown about because it's true to those people's experience of posting on here. My own engagement with the forum has very much been affected by it, and I'm certainly not just making it up.

 

(very long post incoming)

Everyone's allowed an opinion just long as they remember that a group of about 10 posters (not including yourself) have decided which opinions are the correct opinions, and that if you have a view that doesn't align with them - or if you offer up any kind of critical thought whatsoever that puts even the slightest doubt on the agreed narrative -  you should expect to be mercilessly ganged up on, ridiculed, accused of trying to ruin the mood for others etc. Every slight criticism (and even stuff which isn't a criticism) will be portrayed as a stick you're beating the manager with.

All 'Kevin' had to do yesterday was point out that Warne didn't take over the squad in a decimated state (fact) and that most teams would be more than happy with the squad we assembled in a few short weeks (fact) and there was a whole page of rebuttal, piss taking and propaganda in response within a few hours.

Aside from a very remote few (including yourself), nobody else will take the time to try to understand where someone's coming from with their post before attacking it, or to consider that they may have some valid points, they'll just try to find the first thing they can jump on and dismiss both the person and their opinion. 

If you're extra lucky you'll get someone publicly praying that you get banned from the forum. Lovely behaviour.

If you don't like it then apparently you should just suck it up, grow a pair, stop being oversensitive etc ("it's your problem"), stick people on ignore and just allow yourself and anyone else willing to put their head above the parapet to be rudely and aggressively dismissed (as was pointed out earlier about one particularly egregious offender), talked to like you're an idiot, and be subject to countless, mostly unprovoked (unless of course you count someone having a different opinion to the echo chamber as provocation), insidious little digs worded carefully enough not to fall foul of the rules of the board. 

Anyone who's spoken up about this has been accused of 'playing the victim card', and had a string of laughing emojis directed toward them while the ranks are closed on the notion that there's any kind of bullying (or whatever else you wish to call it) going on. The response to 'bullying' behaviour (again, call it whatever name you're most comfortable with) being called out has been to treat it exactly as a gang of bullies would. It's almost poetic. 

There will be a demand for evidence, but those demanding it know full well that the aforementioned insidious comments aren't directly quotable and and don't stand on their own as examples one can pick out, or report (as useless as it would be to do so when such comments are actively encouraged and perpetrated by some of those who'd see the report), but form the backbone of the hostile and oppressive atmosphere that some of us feel is very much alive and (sadly) thriving on this forum. 

The effect is either that some feel they can't post at all (which then gets picked up on as a 'victory' for shutting up the naysayers), that they have to be careful of what they say (walking on eggshells) or that they feel goaded into responding negatively - which just invites further ridicule. Let's punish and demean people for reacting though, give those who elicit the reaction a big old round of applause and a pat on the back.

Everything positive that's been achieved under Warne gets weaponised, any potential negatives for next season preemptively dismissed before they can even be voiced (and immediately met with ire the second they are), and it looks like that will be the case for as long as he's in charge because some posters simply can't treat others with any degree of civility.

The pretense that all this is all just a response to abuse aimed at Warne or aimed at posters for supporting Warne, or 'fighting back against those who want this to think we had a s*** season'  has long since worn out any validity it may have once had, and even that was utterly disproportionate to begin with. 

This forum is still fun if you look in the right areas, but for the past 6 months or so its largely felt mean spirited, hateful, and almost controlled by posters who's primary thought process is that 'negative' posters are there to be attacked from a position of strength afforded to them by our results. It's really quite dispiriting.

 

This is a really well written post and I think probably summarises how a decent chunk of posters feel about the current state of things on here nowadays. 

I’m also sorry you feel that way. I think everyone bears the responsibility for that, not just the offenders in question. We should call out this sort of behaviour more often and try and encourage a better quality of dialogue. “Play nice!”

The only point I’d like to add to it is that I really resent the idea that if you don’t like what someone is saying, you should block them. 

I have been on this forum for over 10 years and never blocked someone. The whole reason I’m on here is to read and engage with people that I don’t necessarily agree with. Why would anyone want to just sit in an echo chamber and hear their own opinions getting chucked back at them? 

But yesterday what was essentially put to me was: “I’m going to be rude to you, if you don’t like it, block me!”

Wouldn’t a better outcome just be that we try and converse with each other a bit more civilly? Then we might actually get somewhere, change someone’s mind, understand someone else’s point of view, and not all get aggy with each other over…football?

Great post again, @May Contain Nuts

[kevinhectoring]

40 minutes ago, Srg said:

That’s all well and good but isn’t that just being a bit Captain Hindsight? Like you’ll be negative about him until proven otherwise, then you’ll say well done but move onto the next doubt?

No, it’s not like being Captain Hindsight because I’m admitting I’ve changed my opinion. 

[Srg]

1 minute ago, kevinhectoring said:

No, it’s not like being Captain Hindsight because I’m admitting I’ve changed my opinion. 

"I don't like him"

He takes us up

"Well done, I don't mind you now, but I don't think you should manage us in the Championship... but if you do well, I will then say well done again"

Or am I missing something here?

[BathRam72]

19 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

This is a really well written post and I think probably summarises how a decent chunk of posters feel about the current state of things on here nowadays. 

I’m also sorry you feel that way. I think everyone bears the responsibility for that, not just the offenders in question. We should call out this sort of behaviour more often and try and encourage a better quality of dialogue. “Play nice!”

The only point I’d like to add to it is that I really resent the idea that if you don’t like what someone is saying, you should block them. 

I have been on this forum for over 10 years and never blocked someone. The whole reason I’m on here is to read and engage with people that I don’t necessarily agree with. Why would anyone want to just sit in an echo chamber and hear their own opinions getting chucked back at them? 

But yesterday what was essentially put to me was: “I’m going to be rude to you, if you don’t like it, block me!”

Wouldn’t a better outcome just be that we try and converse with each other a bit more civilly? Then we might actually get somewhere, change someone’s mind, understand someone else’s point of view, and not all get aggy with each other over…football?

Great post again, @May Contain Nuts

Since you are asking.......Me as I am always right.  😁

[Archied]

27 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

This is a really well written post and I think probably summarises how a decent chunk of posters feel about the current state of things on here nowadays. 

I’m also sorry you feel that way. I think everyone bears the responsibility for that, not just the offenders in question. We should call out this sort of behaviour more often and try and encourage a better quality of dialogue. “Play nice!”

The only point I’d like to add to it is that I really resent the idea that if you don’t like what someone is saying, you should block them. 

I have been on this forum for over 10 years and never blocked someone. The whole reason I’m on here is to read and engage with people that I don’t necessarily agree with. Why would anyone want to just sit in an echo chamber and hear their own opinions getting chucked back at them? 

But yesterday what was essentially put to me was: “I’m going to be rude to you, if you don’t like it, block me!”

Wouldn’t a better outcome just be that we try and converse with each other a bit more civilly? Then we might actually get somewhere, change someone’s mind, understand someone else’s point of view, and not all get aggy with each other over…football?

Great post again, @May Contain Nuts

I heard somebody say something the other day that really made sense to me around this kind of stuff, we now live in an age when people try to force people to se them as they see themselves and if you don’t all the tags and accusations start flying , in the old days 😂 we would be more likely to think jeez I didn’t think people saw me that way and question ourselves and how we come across , this runs through so many issues today ,

on here for instance regards the club , manager players ect there are a very small number who do post constant negatives yet see themselves as died in the wool derby fans just giving opinion as they love the club so much ,,, with a very few that’s not what I see and every now and again I kick back and say what I see , doesn’t mean I’m right , it’s just what I see , people have the same right to see me as they see me and say as much , that’s not bullying it’s just being honest , we live in a world where it’s increasingly frowned on to be honest with each other 

[Nuwtfly]

2 minutes ago, Archied said:

people have the same right to see me as they see me and say as much , that’s not bullying it’s just being honest , we live in a world where it’s increasingly frowned on to be honest with each other 

I've got no problem at all with people being honest - everyone has an absolute right to their own opinion and a right to vocalise it!

But how you vocalise it is another matter. You don't have to be rude to people just because you can be. It not only makes you look like a bit of a bamford but it lowers the quality and standard of the forum as a whole (be it this literal forum or just the general forum of ideas, public discourse etc)

In fact, I think what ends up happening is that the interesting points some of these posters are making gets just ends up getting completely lost between the snide comments and jibes. 

I'm not saying it all needs to be peace and love on here but I think it is a shame that there is an increasing inability to have a civilised debate about pretty much anything without it becoming nasty. I don't see conversations/debates take place like that in the terraces or on the supporters bus, so why online? 

(just to clarify, when I say you i don't mean you specifically @Archied)

[Archied]

16 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I've got no problem at all with people being honest - everyone has an absolute right to their own opinion and a right to vocalise it!

But how you vocalise it is another matter. You don't have to be rude to people just because you can be. It not only makes you look like a bit of a bamford but it lowers the quality and standard of the forum as a whole (be it this literal forum or just the general forum of ideas, public discourse etc)

In fact, I think what ends up happening is that the interesting points some of these posters are making gets just ends up getting completely lost between the snide comments and jibes. 

I'm not saying it all needs to be peace and love on here but I think it is a shame that there is an increasing inability to have a civilised debate about pretty much anything without it becoming nasty. I don't see conversations/debates take place like that in the terraces or on the supporters bus, so why online? 

(just to clarify, when I say you i don't mean you specifically @Archied)

I certainly try not to be rude and ive never taken an issue off forum on to dm to be abusive to a member but I’m ok to listen if people see me differently, I see comrade86 is kind of comming in for it a bit just now and yes he can be spikey , has been with me at times but I’ve been on here long enough to know that I like him and can fall out one day and agree the next , im on and off eddies ignore list like a fiddlers elbow but I still find enough about him that I like and just when I’m sure I’m still on his ignore list he will like a post I’ve made , there are a couple I just can’t find a way to have that kind of respect for but hey that’s life ,

it’s a football forum nothing more nothing less ,people really shouldn’t give it more importance than that , read it , take part then go about your day 🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited June 13 by Archied

[Chester40]

13 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

 I don't see conversations/debates take place like that in the terraces or on the supporters bus, so why online? 

(just to clarify, when I say you i don't mean you specifically @Archied)

Think most of what you wrote was fair, sensible....

But, I totally disagree with this bit.

On the terraces there are more much extreme views expressed all the time. I'm quite liable to lean over and say to my mate 'oh ffs what the **** is abc doing today, he's been absolutely **** all game'.

Or...'why the **** is Warne not making any changes, any idiot see they are going to concede any minute' etc etc.

My mate may agree with my knowledgeable thinking... or say he thinks something totally different. 

The difference is that its left there. Its a brief moment. We both know its desire to see us win that's driving what we say. We move on. We feel better for a moan. On here, it just lingers, gets repeated...over and over at times, gets dissected, over analysed...  the devil makes work for idle hands.

 

[Wolfie20]

2 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Perhaps this is what you want to believe, I don’t know.  Anyway, I doubt it’s true of many posters. 
   

Never suggested it applies to many posters - my view is that it extends to no more than 4 or 5 on the forum.

[kevinhectoring]

1 hour ago, Srg said:

"I don't like him"

He takes us up

"Well done, I don't mind you now, but I don't think you should manage us in the Championship... but if you do well, I will then say well done again"

Or am I missing something here?

Yes you are Sarge. 

[Foreveram]

52 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

I've got no problem at all with people being honest - everyone has an absolute right to their own opinion and a right to vocalise it!

But how you vocalise it is another matter. You don't have to be rude to people just because you can be. It not only makes you look like a bit of a bamford but it lowers the quality and standard of the forum as a whole (be it this literal forum or just the general forum of ideas, public discourse etc)

In fact, I think what ends up happening is that the interesting points some of these posters are making gets just ends up getting completely lost between the snide comments and jibes. 

I'm not saying it all needs to be peace and love on here but I think it is a shame that there is an increasing inability to have a civilised debate about pretty much anything without it becoming nasty. I don't see conversations/debates take place like that in the terraces or on the supporters bus, so why online? 

(just to clarify, when I say you i don't mean you specifically @Archied)

I take it you weren’t at the the Stevenage away game, what Warne had to endure was about as far away from civilised debate as you could get.

[MackworthRamIsGod]

7 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

I take it you weren’t at the the Stevenage away game, what Warne had to endure was about as far away from civilised debate as you could get.

Compared to what the Derby fans had to endure that game, I would say it was quite mild 😉

[Foreveram]

2 minutes ago, MackworthRamIsGod said:

Compared to what the Derby fans had to endure that game, I would say it was quite mild 😉

It’s a good job some of us, and Mr Clowes in particular have a bit more patience then.

[Alty_Ram]

Some excellent points in the posts above and perfectly illustrates how you can have a different opinion, well-argued, but ultimately not conclude (to a neutral observer at least) that anyone was necessarily right. That's not a cop-out, it may simply be that the issue being discussed is so subjective that there isn't a right or wrong, even though you may feel passionately that there is. Saying that Player X scored 47 league goals for Derby is a fact and may be wrong or right. Saying that during their time at Derby, that you feel that Midfielder Y contributed more than Midfielder Z is an opinion - there may not be a universally accepted answer, and that's fine. Manager B achieved more but had less financial restrictions than Manager C so you feel that C deserves more credit that B, also fine.. opinion.

It seems that the problem arises (and you see this in debates over politics and other subjects that people feel passionate about), that some people seem unable to accept that others have a different and equally valid opinion. You may not agree but when you reach 10 posts and replies arguing a polar opposite position, that maybe, just maybe, you are never going to agree and you move on. That doesn't make the other person a ******* ****, you just don't agree. No need for simmering resentment, name calling and pithy DMs.

My friend group are an odd mix politically in that they cover a wide spectrum, and certainly we have some heated debates but ultimately as mates (and to their credit) we can respect a different take on things even when we have hugely disagreed on a subject. The problem with arguing with complete strangers on a forum is that a bit like road raging against a spec of a figure in a distant car that seemed to cut you up - it is quite an impersonal platform and people can be very defensive or reactionary as a result.

I can accept both arguments that Warne has proved nothing yet as regards his Championship credentials and because he has failures on his CV when he has reached that level previously. I also 100% agree with those who argue that he deserves our full backing while he tests that statement having led us back to the Championship with a hugely welcome and thoroughly enjoyable automatic promotion. Looking forward to it !

Some folks might just like to light a fire under a thread to see what happens, but this game we all love is an emotive subject and people will have strong opinions. Let them.. equally though, you have a right to expect the same back. I don't think that trying to shut down arguments/discussions is particularly healthy but as others have mentioned above, I have never blocked anyone. I may vehemently disagree with you but I respect your right to that opinion.

[Srg]

37 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Yes you are Sarge. 

Ok, crack on then. 

I’ll continue to safe Southgate is rubbish, unless he wins the euros then I’ll say he’s alright, but I don’t think he should be the man for the World Cup, until he wins that and then I’ll say well done. 

[Nuwtfly]

1 hour ago, Chester40 said:

Think most of what you wrote was fair, sensible....

But, I totally disagree with this bit.

On the terraces there are more much extreme views expressed all the time. I'm quite liable to lean over and say to my mate 'oh ffs what the **** is abc doing today, he's been absolutely **** all game'.

Or...'why the **** is Warne not making any changes, any idiot see they are going to concede any minute' etc etc.

My mate may agree with my knowledgeable thinking... or say he thinks something totally different. 

The difference is that its left there. Its a brief moment. We both know its desire to see us win that's driving what we say. We move on. We feel better for a moan. On here, it just lingers, gets repeated...over and over at times, gets dissected, over analysed...  the devil makes work for idle hands.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

I take it you weren’t at the the Stevenage away game, what Warne had to endure was about as far away from civilised debate as you could get.

Fair points both - I should clarify what sort of comments I'm referring to!

I don't mean the sort of general negative comments that you absolutely do hear a lot in the in the terraces and at the bar before the game. I'm definitely guilty of a groan to the person left or right of me!

I mean the sort of responses you seem to get on here now to reasonable comments/criticisms.

For example, if I'm sat on a supporters bus and I turn to the person next to me and say "I'm a bit worried about how we'll get on in the division above under Warne next season due to X, Y, Z..." I think it's pretty unlikely that that person will turn to me and say they think I'm a victim-blaming bullsh11er and to stop feeling oppressed. Nor are they likely to tell me to "go and sit somewhere else if you don't like it."

If I'm being honest it's the sort of thing that just ends up making me feel less inclined to come on this forum anymore. Which sucks because I live over 200 miles away from Derby so, for me, it's my primary outlet for this sort of stuff. But why bother if that's what the responses will be like now? 

I just think it's a shame.